Does it not just hurt your heart to see? TT^TT

[MGarza145]

Before going off on people who frame cels (which I know is a common theme in the cel community), please read the description of that auction- it says "DID NOT USE UV BLOCKING GLASS".

It's not that "all" framing is evil, just that bad framing is. It's sad what it did to these cels, but I guess the owner didn't know better and it was obviously a mistake done a long time ago. I don't think it makes them a bad person, but yeah, hoipefully they learned better now and have been keeping the rest in a dark cupboard, as besides the tragic artwork damage it is also money they've lost from the condition the cels are in now.

Good framing however is okay as long as you know what you're getting. I have one cel framed archivally and it does cost a couple of hundred to have that done right, you can't just go down to the local hobby shop and buy cheap materials to do it. The art guy who did it is a trusted person who specialises in archiving art- usually fine art- but I made sure he knew how important the cel was to me and so he treated it respectfully. I don't really care what naysayers say, because technically I think that having a cel in a completely archival-safe, UV protected frame in a cupboard is actually slightly better than having cels in a cel book (which I keep most of mine in- for one thing I couldn't afford to spend what I spent on the framing on every cel, and not every cel warrants it).

Think about it- it it's framed well, it's in a controlled environment, and the use of spacers keeps *anything* (except for a thin sheet of cel bag placed to back it and prevent sticking) from actually touching the cel at all- as opposed to cel book pages leaning on each other even if the book is 'hung'. In addition, if it's archivally matted inside the frame you can tell if the environment is contaminated by acids at any point because it will be visible in the paper.

The cel I have framed for the record already had a little bit of line fade when I got it, and is in exactly the same condition now. I had it up for 4 years on the wall in a very dark back room, and now I keep in it a cupboard completely out of the light but in it's frame, as I no longer felt like having it up. I plan to check the materials are still good or else replace them, and then use the frame for another piece of art I have I would like to have out.

There is nothing wrong with it *if* it's done right, using the utmost caution and sense, and I'm a little sick of cel collectors moaning otherwise when they only have proof from obvious mistakes like this one, and when you don't really have any sort of archival expertise like some of these guys who do art restoration for a living. The idea that 'cel books protect better than completely archival framing and/or similar storage' (in the dark, hung etc) is just folk knowledge. On the other hand I don't treat most of my cels like the Mona Lisa and give them the kind of super-archival treatment that goes way beyond that because they are *not* the Mona Lisa, and most of them don't really deserve that. We just like them because they're fun, pretty, and we want to keep them relatively safe, right?

Sorry for going off on this but I feel a bit justified as I'm always hearing this. There is a big distinction between rubbish DIY cheapo framing and framing done right by someone who knows what they're doing and respects the work (about $200 difference -> j/k ).

Anyway yes, agreed- it's sad the cels are like that. Whether your cels are in books or frames, you need to monitor them and make sure nothing weird's going on- common sense.

Agreed.

Correct archival framing can cost a pretty penny or two, but it is definitely worth it in the long run. I have all my Disney cels framed.

Poor cels ;_;. Perhaps a nice trip to the S/R Lab would do them some good.

[Cordelia]

Good framing is definitely in no way comparable to bad framing. And yes, if stored badly in cel books, the cel can deteriorate quickly as well. Framing does allow you to enjoy the cel more often than storing it somewhere. It's the constant dilemma of storage vs accessibility faced by all museums/ collectors.

My point is if it's something valuable, you might want to think twice because UV protection is not 100%. And if you resell, buyers may hesitate because they may worry about damage when removing the cel and they don't know where the cel has been displayed and for how long. Even for museums with controlled conditions, they rotate their collections on display to minimise exposure.

It's ultimately up to the collector, this is after all a hobby to give you pleasure. I just wanted to highlight some points to think about if you want to frame your cels.

This discussion made me think....maybe ideally a good way is to frame the cel using good archival methods and store them in the dark?

[Belldandy16]

*going slightly off topic, sorry*
so how do you know if a cel in a frame has archival materials?
i mean, i bought a cel quite a long time ago and the previous owner had it professionally framed (you can tell its professional). At the time i didnt think of it but i should have asked if they used archival materials. >_<
how can i tell if they used archival materials? is there something on the market that you can put on it to tell if it is or not?
(kinda like they use the pens on the $100 bill to tell if theyre real or not? ya know what i mean?)

thanks!

[Sylia]

And if you resell, buyers may hesitate because they may worry about damage when removing the cel and they don't know where the cel has been displayed and for how long.

That is a really good point that I'm glad you brought up ^^. I think online sellers should carefully remove the cel from the frame for scanning purposes, and give it a really good scan so that we can see what we're buying up close and personal. Unless the condition is obvious from the photo though, it is pretty hard to tell what condition the cels we are buying are in anyway. You've no guarantee that the unframed cels you buy have been kept well, in the same way you can't tell if the framed cel has; unless you can tell from the pic and what they tell you. The seller must be honest about it in the description, and hopefully know the cel's history well (i.e. tell you if they are the one who had it framed, how they had it done, etc). You can ask sellers questions typically; it is up to you how you feel about it after their assurances.

Also, damage when removing the cel would happen depending on how it was framed. If it's framed for easy access and the person tells you they've opened it once a year to air, it's unlikely you'll have any difficulties opening it. If they were dumb and forgot that the cel can and will stick to it's matte... well... you need to find out from them what they put behind it. And also if they used spacers (these lift the front matte off the artwork). I believe in float mounting the cel with museum corners so that you can see the edges clearly- in this way, no paper is ever touching my cel, and there is no pressure on the painted image (it isn't being 'sandwiched' in the same way as if you put the matte directly on top). I obviously wouldn't send a cel to somebody like this as if you hold it upside down the cel can slide out... which would be bad to travel through the post that way.

Personally I might not want that particularly piece in a frame if I win it from them, but if the frame job is not terribly old and I trust the person 100% that it's all good, it does raise the value a little bit because the frame itself is valuable to me (good materials are sooo expensive). If I didn't need another frame at all though, or if I really hated the one it came with, I guess I'd try to negotiate the frame with it out of the price (if it was raising the price in the sellers' eyes- as in, "you keep it, I just want the cel"). We've done that before when we've sold on old movie lobby card memorabilia, as the collectors buying didn't necessarily want to display them. I think that's fine, to be honest.

Even for museums with controlled conditions, they rotate their collections on display to minimise exposure.

Gosh the Tate's had it's Dalis out for a long time... Kidding . I know what you mean. And obviously the big museums use the utmost care in how they display things like the real Mona Lisa etc to ensure it can be on display to the public day in day out; which I'm sure goes way beyond a $400 frame job. Which brings it back to common sense for the average collector- have your pieces framed safely, but obviously don't stick them in the window of a sunny room. I think if you have a dark room or dark cupboard-like room that's the best place to hang them, and naturally it does not hurt to rotate things either (besides which, I get bored of the same old same old on my wall for more than 5 years, no matter how much I love it- for one thing the decor changes! j/k).

so how do you know if a cel in a frame has archival materials?
i mean, i bought a cel quite a long time ago and the previous owner had it professionally framed (you can tell its professional). At the time i didnt think of it but i should have asked if they used archival materials. >_<
how can i tell if they used archival materials? is there something on the market that you can put on it to tell if it is or not?

That I have no idea... I can ask my archivist family member when I next see her, but I myself don't know. You do need to ask the seller. If they are using the right kind of language and know what kinds of things to mention right away that you'd be worried about, they may be a safe bet. If they don't mention that kind of thing, chances are they were a bit clueless about their framing and so maybe don't care enough to realise what would immediately be important to any collector. I know immediately what my concerns would be, so if the seller is telling me those kinds of things right away up front my suspicions about the framing would be raised. If I were the seller, I would have been offering those assurances right away as I personally would know my framed piece's history, and I also know the concerns about framing people have. Basically, if you trust the person 100% and you like what you hear, go for it; but if there's any cause for doubt, use caution and err on the side you feel safer with.

Thanks for the interesting discussion guys! I half thought I'd be battered with umbrellas by the totally anti-framing gang XD. But I like the discussion ^^. I think people just need to use their wits when deciding these things for themselves; but blanket painting all framing as 'evil' isn't the answer.

And I agree, I do think the ultimate best choice out of limited means is to keep it in proper safe frames, in the dark. Maybe a little "gallery closet" lol. Sadly it's not like most of us could afford that, so cel books and bags for most things are the next best choice. Of course, some don't even do that... (-> eyes a few cels of mine that previous people had kept unbagged and apparently stacked or in the light at some point... (Mind you, the animators themselves used some of them as rests for their coffee mugs apparently, so... you know. Minimise the damage, that's all we can do!).
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