Anime-Haven -Outbidding Collectors on YJ to Sell on Ebay @*&

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

So why, as someone mentioned earlier, should you have to pay a $225 markup if the dealer went through the same process as you did to obtain the cel? They didn't go through any 'extra' trouble to obtain it. You could have easily won it for the beginning price if it weren't for the dealer.

That was the whole point. It's not fair to see something sitting at a place you have access to bid on, and then find out you lose the cel to a dealer that didn't go through any extra hassle (especially if they themselves are using a deputy service) just to get $225 profit on that cel. No one should have to go through that for a cel that they want.

I hadn't thought about this much, but you raise a very important point here. Dealers themselves are artificially inflating the market by bidding up cels on auction sites. They might be wanting to resale the price for more money, but if they end up losing, all they've accomplished is inflating the final total for the winner. The thought of that utterly sickens me. The winner would've paid less if it had not been for the dealer/reseller.

Yes, yes, people can do whatever they please. I know. But it doesn't make the practice any more palatable.

And yeah, if cel collecting is a means for people to impress others and build some kind of self-esteem, that's not good. You can buy, buy, buy, but if you're not happy with yourself as a person, then you have to deal with that at the end of the day. Cels, and material possessions in general, are great but they're not everything. It takes strength to restrain and not go spend-crazy in this hobby. Drowning in debt or spending your entire life savings or never thinking about tomorrow (financially speaking) cannot lead to happiness.

[buttrflym]

Cutiebunny:

Let's say, using the example of the cel you previously mentioned, that all five sequence mates(A1key-A5end) were snagged and taken off the market by 2000. I began to collect in 2003 and I avidly search YJ, Mandarake, etc. every day for this one cel. This is the cel that I want most - it's my super wishlist cel, one that I think I'll never have because, after three years of searching, I've never seen it...anywhere. Then, one day, I stumble on Dealer X's site, who is offering it at 1.2K. This dealer has my wishlist, and after searching for years, 1.2K, while not being cheap, is a price I'd pay to obtain that cel. While, as I prepare to transfer payment with Paypal, I'm sure that the seller originally paid far less for that cel, the enjoyment of displaying, framing, etc. that cel is worth the high price that I'll pay for that cel.

I have been collecting anime cels for ten years (1996 or so) and all markets had their ups and downs. Dealers see this and price accordingly. If newbie collectors come on the market and are willing to spend lots of money, then of course dealers are going to up their prices. But...if these newbies are not willing to learn value and pricing, and adjust accordingly, then it hurts the rest of us. Not to say we don't have money or the luxury to spend money, we are just not willing to give in to higher prices. Certain people keep these prices high with the mindset that, "Hey I have the money, why not." I have noticed since early-mid 2002/2003 certain markets seem to stay high because of these collectors.

My point really is that people need to consider the overall value etc. and not focus on the fact that they have money. In the end this would help prices to become reasonable, rather than keeping a higher range.

buttrflym

[Ronin]

So why, as someone mentioned earlier, should you have to pay a $225 markup if the dealer went through the same process as you did to obtain the cel? They didn't go through any 'extra' trouble to obtain it. You could have easily won it for the beginning price if it weren't for the dealer.

That was the whole point. It's not fair to see something sitting at a place you have access to bid on, and then find out you lose the cel to a dealer that didn't go through any extra hassle (especially if they themselves are using a deputy service) just to get $225 profit on that cel. No one should have to go through that for a cel that they want.

I hadn't thought about this much, but you raise a very important point here. Dealers themselves are artificially inflating the market by bidding up cels on auction sites. They might be wanting to resale the price for more money, but if they end up losing, all they've accomplished is inflating the final total for the winner. The thought of that utterly sickens me. The winner would've paid less if it had not been for the dealer/reseller.

Yes, yes, people can do whatever they please. I know. But it doesn't make the practice any more palatable.

And yeah, if cel collecting is a means for people to impress others and build some kind of self-esteem, that's not good. You can buy, buy, buy, but if you're not happy with yourself as a person, then you have to deal with that at the end of the day. Cels, and material possessions in general, are great but they're not everything. It takes strength to restrain and not go spend-crazy in this hobby. Drowning in debt or spending your entire life savings or never thinking about tomorrow (financially speaking) cannot lead to happiness.

My thoughts mirror WC and SME. And I really think SME hit the nail on the head with this statement.

[iwakuralain16]

Hahah This post has become so much longer than I thought it would. hahaha

I can understand how some dealers will buy cels and then a few years later resell them and no one would really know(at least the new collectors that have come around between that time he bought it and the present). It just amazes me that it only took this dealer 2 months to buy it and resell it. I would have bought that cel for at least 1/4 of what they are selling it for. I usually buy alot of cels at once, that why The shipping wont be $12/cel but $12/5 cels. My deputy Combines shipping. and I only get charged one bank fee as well.

I agree with Buttr about the value and pricing. but sometimes there are those few cels out there that you wouldnt mind dishing the proper funds out to buy it. Which is normal. ah well

Im not too worried about the market anymore. I will not buy from that dealer, especially those cels. I will wait for something better to come along, as how it should be.

[ZombieBunny]

Ignore the bad prices and focus on other pieces of lovely art that is out there!

While I may agree with you on this, I can't help but say it is rather hard to focus on those lovely pieces of art when there are those out there that are jacking up the prices to insane amounts.

Whether it be collectors and/or dealers, the only way to even think about having shots like that would either to be 1.) spend an absurd amount of money on one piece or 2.) get a fancel made of it.

For those that wish to own the original cel, that's hard to do when the prices can't stay within reasonable market-value spending.

I couldnt have said it better. Sorry...I have a one deminsional thought pattern sometimes

Also, I just try to think of the positive side of things. It is frustrating seeing a cel with a 200% mark-up for just because.

Personally I just try to go along as best I can and try to enjoy the hobby as much as possible without getting down from the bad things that happen. Still though....it is hard to do...

[RoboFlonne]

I used to cry and pout that only ally the aligator was left and I'd never get the unicorn!

Sorry, alligators own unicorns.

It is one of the only beanie babies I own.

I love Ally the Alligator! Ally was one of my very first Beanies!

But Seriously can you really say that Ally is cuter then Mystic the Irridescent Unicorn!



Mystic is possibly the cutest beanie to ever live!

Im not too worried about the market anymore. I will not buy from that dealer, especially those cels. I will wait for something better to come along, as how it should be.-Iwakuralain-

I feel guilty about this thread, because it's a thread expressing your love for those two cels.

But it turned out to be a thread about revenge.

I feel guilty because I helped you write a pretty forceful letter to that ebay seller who sold you that AnC cel and was misleading about who was on the cel. You thought it was Ceres and I would have also. What he did was a mistake and you got a $30 partial refund.

But this thread is also a mistake.

Remember the man who was given the fishing rod and was able to eat for life? Well this thread is about breaking that fishing rod because that man decided to get married and now needs to sell the fish to make a living. The worms cost him nothing, because he wakes up in the morning to get them then he goes to the water to fish. He sells his fish for $3 a pound. And makes an infinite percent profit. $3/$0 = infinite.

It's not fair to say that the fisherman has cheated you with his markup. INFINITE percent. You could wake up as well.

That man has created a secondary market. Something you or I could not do.

We do not love Anime or Cels enough to give up our lives to move to Japan and buy cels. I don't love love Cels enough to give up my life here.


The basis of all arguements of evil in this thread is GREED.
The 12,000percent markup of the breadman makes him the most evil of them all. But he also got me my 300 beanies. I didn't pay $5.95x300 or $1800 for them. I bought like $200 worth of beanies and traded with him for the rest.

Greed is a personification of evil.

But how do you define Greed?

Who decides how much Anime Link, Anime Have, Anime Game, or Anime Museum deserves?

Are they getting more for the cel then they deserve?

but the same arguement could be made about why we deserve the cels more then they do.

" Do you really want a irridescent unicorn!" If you do, why don't you go up and line up at the store everyday until you get one. Why do you think that you deserve the Unicorn more then the sellers? It just shows that your love isn't strong enough!!

The Breadmen which we boycott will destroy a very important part of the cel collecting hobby, It'll destroy something that not you or I can replace.

If you loved the Unicorn enough then you would have woke up and bid 3000 yen on it. Anime Haven would have probably given up at 2200 yen, because of cost of business.

Boycotting them will confuse new buyers. And New buyers/collectors are the foundation of the cel collecting hobby in the USA. Anime-Haven, Anime Link, Anime Museum, Anime Game are not here for you and I alone, but for other people who don't want to wake up in the morning to dig worms and catch their own fish. What happens one day, when We decide that fish should be free? Well the fisherman works at mc donalds, which now sells worm burgers instead of fish.

Remember how I broke down what the seller would do with our letter to him about you wanting a refund on your AnC Ceres Cel? Well, I also know that Anime Haven spends on listing on Ebay and maintaining that business.

Store costs:
1. $3.50 for Listing every 7 days (Probably will list 7 times before it sells.) will make a profit if it sells in the first seven days. And will begin losing money if it doesn't sell after so many relistings.)
2. $5.00 Ebay final fees
3. $3.00 paypal fees
4. anime Convention Fees ( $250-$1000 per table for 3 days) You would want 3-6 tables if you wanted to be successful.

P.s. Thank You! RedWolf, Moop, Toni, zombiebunny and all of you guys for your kind words and for listening to what I have to say.

Arigatou~desu!

P.s.s. I ask the moderators to lock this thread... Just because it's depressing. I'm going to have to watch some anime or I'll....

[RoboFlonne]

This thread is really depressing...

I get the feeling that you may be one of the majority of people who see no entertainment value in pointless debate.

Oh! I love debate. Why else would I be on a messageboard?

Another of my hero's is O'reilly!

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

P.s.s. I ask the moderators to lock this thread... Just because it's depressing. I'm going to have to watch some anime or I'll....

I disagree about locking this thread on your account. Depressed? Stop reading.

Your story about the fisherman is leaving out a few things. I don't have to buy from fisherman A if fisherman B has better prices on his fish. Fisherman A can hold out with his higher prices, but that's a gamble. Fisherman A is allergic to fish and will eventually starve if he does not get some kind of income. So, he breaks over and discounts his fish or he's forced to offer more than just fish. You have to adapt if you want to survive in the market place.

Moreover, his prices may have turned me off to his fish, or all fish in general. Maybe I'll opt for chicken instead (that I've blown away with my shotgun, no doubt). If things remain out of reach, the buyer will go elsewhere. The seller is supposed to cater to buyers, not the other way around.

Posters in this thread are complaining about something that is perfectly legal but extremely annoying. We're allowed to vent about it. We don't need to attend an Economics 101 seminar to figure out things like "the cel market is based on what people are willing to pay" or "the laws of supply and demand." Everyone who's posted here is intelligent and passionate. None of us are stupid. Cels are a business and the bottom line is all that dealers care about. I don't blame them for that. But know when you're beat. Have the good sense to know that your tactics don't always work. If a cel has been posted on a site for several years, mark it down. Lower the damn price. It's clear the overwhelming majority are not willing to pay that price.

Some dealers need a wake-up call. Fish eventually spoils and then no one wants it. And you can't charge big fish prices for a small fish. Some collectors and buyers will be turned off by the behavior of certain sellers. Artificially ballooning prices is hardly an honest business tactic, which is what happens when sellers bid on auctions (especially when they ultimately lose those auctions).

[kymaera]

P.s.s. I ask the moderators to lock this thread... Just because it's depressing.

Then, I ask the moderators not to lock this thread because there's interesting discussion going on If you find it depressing, don't read it or post in it, but don't cut off other people's right to discuss it.

[RoboFlonne]

You have to work and love the cels you want. There is a very clear line where sellers can't cross if they want to make money.

Sellers also have Japanese bidders as well, and ebay fees.

No one's answered. Who's more evil the japanese bidder or the sellers?

Would it make a difference if a japanese bidder won it and you never saw it again?

[RoboFlonne]

Moreover, his prices may have turned me off to his fish, or all fish in general. Maybe I'll opt for chicken instead (that I've blown away with my shotgun, no doubt). If things remain out of reach, the buyer will go elsewhere. The seller is supposed to cater to buyers, not the other way around. -Toni-

My fish was Beanie babies.

Boycotts destroyed fish and now I eat chicken. Thank you,

Now boycotts threaten to destroy Chickfila. I don't have a shotgun.

[RoboFlonne]

We don't need to attend an Economics 101 seminar to figure out things like "the cel market is based on what people are willing to pay" or "the laws of supply and demand."-Toni-

My economics teacher is a great person. But there is a reason why he teaches economics and doesn't own a successful business.

I love Chickfila! Don't do to chickfila what we did to fish! Save the chicken!

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

It's cute when people try so hard to usurp the opinions of others.

"You're wrong!"
"No, you're wrong!"

Haha, that's funny.

[RoboFlonne]

I'm glad you're happy Toni!

[kizu]

We’re all collectors… We all value things differently. We do not have the same experiences collecting although we may have seen similar occurances. We do not have the same collecting habits… I may or may not pay the prices dealers set… Definitely I will be peeved to have experienced what Iwakuralain just did.. Actually I have experienced it with the same YJ ID. However there is something I learned from that experience, is that I was not willing to go over and beyond to get the cel. If it was a cel I really wanted, I would’ve stayed up for it, bid a ridiculous max… etc. etc. so I will be sure to win. However I did not do this and so the cel went to them. Good for them, now they can re-sell. Is it my loss? No not really. Will someone else pay those prices, I’m sure someone will come along. Should I begrudge them (competition and newbie) for getting the cel I did not win? Selling it again for prices that may or may not be bloated in my opinion? But I wasn’t willing to pay for it the first time? Didn’t value the same or enough to buy it unlike the newbie? Why should I? I already decided it wasn’t worth it my first time. So my answer is, I neither hate nor dislike anyone in this situations, otherwise I’d have to quit this hobby.

Another thing… Not all newbies give in to bloated prices, I believe that when anybody does pay, it’s not because they’re giving in but because it has came within their reach and they wanted it enough. The prices of cels are not pegged; it follows the laws of supply and demand and perhaps Adam’s invisible hand. Let us not start pointing fingers to each other and try to enjoy the hobby instead. One time a couple of people told me, I deserve to get the cel coz I’m the biggest fan they know of this guy… I told them that’s not really true, being a fan doesn’t mean you deserve a cel but if you found it at an opportune time , willing to pay the costs and it’s sold to you then yes the cel was “meant” to be yours (like another person told me). I pay premium prices for the cels I need, I am I guess still a newbie (September 06), I have outbidded others and been outbid, I have had my first cel sale which I thought I’d never ever do… I am/will be buying from dealers if I find what I want from them at a price that’s reasonable IMO (not in others opinion)… Simply I do things a normal collector would do, yet these things do contribute sometimes to the issues mentioned beforehand but I’m not going to hate myself because I do these things nor can I hate others for it…

If we really didn’t want crazy prices, yeah we all can decide not to pay for them. Let’s all sit back and watch auctions end without any bids, watch dealers have crazy sales, fellow collectors get stuck with cels they no longer want... Let’s all just watch. Can we all really do that? How about those cels other people got, remember dwindling market prices means the price of the cels that’s in one’s personal collection dwindle in value too. The next thing I’ll be hearing is how, the cels are so worthless (money-wise) now.

*sigh* I agree with Roboflanne. Let’s just enjoy the hobby.

I really don’t think anyone here is the real enemy. It’s simply we got it or we don’t. Especially auctions where sales are “blind” and the cel goes to the highest (maybe fastest) bidder.