Anime-Haven -Outbidding Collectors on YJ to Sell on Ebay @*&

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Ms. Poe
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Post by Ms. Poe »

RoboFlonne wrote:You have to work and love the cels you want. There is a very clear line where sellers can't cross if they want to make money.

Sellers also have Japanese bidders as well, and ebay fees.

No one's answered. Who's more evil the japanese bidder or the sellers?

Would it make a difference if a japanese bidder won it and you never saw it again?
The sellers themselves are.

There's often times a great divide between the way we as a community collect cels compared to the japanese collectors. Most don't even share their goods. a LOT don't ever want these to leave Japan or be seen by anyone outside of Japan. It's part of the way they collect under their culture and you cannot hate them for that...It's wrong...despite how much it differs from our collecting habits.

Sure...We get mad...But it's going to someone who has the same passion as the rest of us, but with different perceptions on the "community" and sharing.

When I see someone buy a mediocre Eva cel for $150 and turn around and try to sell it for $799...I just think:

"O gawd..."

Roll my eyes, and move on.

But, what comes into play is that a lot of times there are collectors who have a love for that particular cel, and a passion. Wanting to add it to their collection. Then, someone purely in it for profit step in and outbids them just to turn around and resell it for an outrageous amount.

That is what gets me. an honest collector who would of loved the cel to it's very core was outbid by someone "trying" to make a profit. And a profit of a ludicrous amount, WAY beyond market value. I click on some autions with those prices expecting to see some very decent stuff...But then I see a crappy small image, line fading, etc...And I go...

WTF

That's just angering. But, as I've said before, companies have to make a profit, but those selling high priced items can only go so far with their customers willing to pay that amount.

Anime Link has incredible things. Things I would buy if I had the money. some things are inflated, but that's just b/c ppl will pay that amount of money. usually at cons. They have so many incredible...And I do mean *INCREDBLE* things they show at cons that you never see on their website. Thoise things sell, and then in turn hike up the price of us e-commerce folks. Once they don't sell at that price, it's logical that the price will drop, or they have "SALES"...YAY!

Others, like Curt, sell for a very decent price, and have incredible goods to boot.

Then, others, like AH, don't seem to take any of the above into account and just try and gouge the life out of your wallet.

I have respect for Link and Asylum, and many other dealers for what they do. But then there's some who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole b/c they seem to have no care for the "collector". The passion behind collecting. The meaning. In my opinion, businesses like Asylum and Link have been in business for years, and will be for years to come b/c of their great business sense.

Others will eventually fall. The same thing happened with Aloha Anime. They had the same pricing scheme until their end. And where are they now........?
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Post by RoboFlonne »

The sellers themselves are.

There's often times a great divide between the way we as a community collect cels compared to the japanese collectors. Most don't even share their goods. a LOT don't ever want these to leave Japan or be seen by anyone outside of Japan. It's part of the way they collect under their culture and you cannot hate them for that...It's wrong...despite how much it differs from our collecting habits.

Sure...We get mad...But it's going to someone who has the same passion as the rest of us, but with different perceptions on the "community" and sharing. -Ms. Poe-
Just wanted to explain that ms. Poe means the production artists, and not a reseller.

The reseller who resells that cel for $799 to a crazy Evangelion fan, is actually making that crazy fan really happy.

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This shinji can probably costs 200 yen with coffee. I sold them for $35. Partly because I love Evangelion. And partly because It funds my anime collection.

Am I evil?


Yes I am!
/gg /gg /gg
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Post by wELCOME cONSUMER »

RoboFlonne wrote:My economics teacher is a great person. But there is a reason why he teaches economics and doesn't own a successful business.
And you're his student, how interesting.

It's clear now that you're defending the sellers because you obviously fall into the same category. At least, it seems that you identify with them, since you bring up the inflated price of something you're selling. Did you ask $35 or did buyers offer $35? Big difference there.

No one is begrudging a seller who's smart enough to buy something for $2 and sell it for $40. I've sold a cel for $200 that I got for free (no joke). That's good business and lots of luck. That is absolutely not the same as someone who buys a cel for $200 and tries to sell it for $500 when it was barely worth the original $200.

Ultimately, sellers either learn their lesson or they don't. Buyers can do whatever they want in response to these actions. Avoid the sellers you don't like, it's your choice. But please, please stop trying so hard to make people feel bad for having their individual beliefs. If someone doesn't agree with you, let them be. You're not building a defense for sellers that we all haven't heard already. Business is business and we see what really goes on. If we don't like it, you won't see our money. Simple as that.

If you're feeling guilty, go to a confessional.
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Post by safetygirl »

This business practice? Happens in most every other collectable hobby. People scour small-town thrift shops to re-sell a $4 dress for $150 at the hipster boutique; there's a lot of doujinshi on YJ, I'm outbid and a month later I see the same doujin as singles on ebay. It's annoying but it's the nature of the game.

What I find -ironic- about this thread is when I compare it to an earlier one about what people paid for a cel vs. what they were offered for it. My, the crowing that went on there about the crazy percentages they were able to resale at! So in that situation making a profit from your cels is okay then? I don't recall any responders there saying that they took the purchaser by the hand, patted them on the head and say, "no, no, I paid $20 for this cel! You don't need to pay me the $500 you're willing to pay... I'll let you have it for $20!" And yes, I'm certain there are those who sell for less than what they paid, but was it "fairness" or just wanting to make a sale?

Dealers are in the business to make money. I know, I know, capitalism is so -unfair-! But until cel collecting is ruled over by a magical genie that can determine who "deserves" or "needs" a cel more, that's how this hobby works. Sometimes we might find a breadman who will help us out. But like in real life, those aren't terribly common.

There was a comment earlier about "ruining" it for people who don't have a lot of money to spend. And the logic here is that the person who can't pay the price will enjoy it more? Don't dismiss people who can pay those prices as mere treasure-seekers. After all, there are collectors who spend a lot but aren't "known", or the person who buys one good Inuyasha cel and never buys another one ever again. Not every collector is here on beta or on RS. So until someone (maybe the magical genie) invents a "Cherish-O-Meter" to determine who "deserves" as cel more, it's going to go to the person who will pay for it. Note I don't say -can-. That's a different issue. Just like a dealer -could- go down on prices, but it's not to say that he -should-. If they want to sit on a cel for three years and not budge on the price, it's their balance sheet they're having to answer to. Not "fairness".

I see a lot of cynicism in this hobby, and outright paranoia. It makes me really sad because it's love that makes me drop money that I could be spending on manga or retiling my foyer on these delicate sheets of plastic. I hope that that cynicism doesn't overtake me during the course of this hobby. I really just want to enjoy it.
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Post by RoboFlonne »

No one is begrudging a seller who's smart enough to buy something for $2 and sell it for $40. I've sold a cel for $200 that I got for free (no joke). That's good business and lots of luck. That is absolutely not the same as someone who buys a cel for $200 and tries to sell it for $500 when it was barely worth the original $200.
I agree... Anime Haven is an idiot.

Please don't buy their stuff.

:bny :bny :bny

Please don't feel bad. I don't want anyone to be unhappy!

What ever makes you happy toni!

P.s. Safetygirl! Welcome to the boards! This thread does have purpose! It has brought out a lurker! Welcome any time!
Last edited by RoboFlonne on Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by iwakuralain16 »

This thread wasn't really so much about revenge, but about me being pissed about someone buying a cel at 1,100 yen and then reselling it at $89.99. I had never run into this before, so I wanted to see if anyone else had and what their thoughts were on the subject (which I am very happy about everyone putting in through thoughts and opinions ^_^). yes yes, I am a fairly new collector. So I havn't experienced things like this or that guy who ripped me off with that Ceres cel(and again, thanks Roboflonne for helping me with that, he gave me good feedback eventually haha).

I do not want this thread locked. I am the one that started this thread and I enjoy reading everyone's feedback! /ok

Now onto the greed issue. YES. I guess it is a greed issue. Collector wanting cel for his/her own collection vs. Dealers wanting cel to make a profit for him/herself. If i had really wanted the cel that badly i would have bidded more though. >_> I just never really imagined that cel dealers would be bidding against me, and If i wanted that cel later I would have to pay $89.99. I buy large lots of anime stuff just because of one or two items in it, and then sell the rest. I am usually thanked by some of the people who buy from me because of the selection I have of quote "rare items". Since I bid on YJ alot they are not really rare to me, but there are just some things that don't get over to the US alot(especially furoku) I sometimes make back the money I bought the stuff for, and sometimes I dont. So I understand how this could help bring cels to collectors who don't use YJ or other Japanese auctions sites (I am sure this will come in handy with all of the out sourcing that is being done to other questions). I guess that is when I will appreciate dealers buying genga/skteches and etc because they have access and we don't have deputy services for their respective countries, unlike how it is now with Japanese auction sites.

As for Dealers vs. Japanese collectors? I read a thread on this board once about a user that was angry because they wanted to buy a cel from Yahoo japan and even though his deputy service won, the seller relisted the item and gave the excuse of "This cel is only for Japanese maniacs" or something to that effect. I remember that post because I laughed because it was translated as Maniacs instead of fans. haha Anyways. I started to wonder the other day why that person who was selling that cel said that. Is it because he really wanted it for Japanese fans(and he was not really greedy because money obviously is not the only thing he wants) or was his REAL concern was because he did not want someone outside of Japan using a deputy service to buy and then resell the sell for a Huge profit(aka a cel dealer, or even a collector who likes to buy/resell for profit). Just a thought.

I think the Japanese collectors have every right to collect just as much as we do, even though we don't see their collections as much and they don't have an awesome website like rubberslug to host their galleries. If I didn't have a RS account, I most likely wouldn't have as much of my collection online because I have no time to create an awesome website to host my gallery. Usually if I can not find a good scene or a wishlist cel, i know it is either held by a private collector(whether they be Japanese or not) or it could be in a cel book at a dealers home or store. It could be anywhere. Just because I never get to see it in a gallery doesn't mean I should or someone I know should have it because they will upload it online. I figure if the person ever wants to sell it... it will show up. If not in on auction then in a dealers shop OR even a collector online that has good contacts with cel dealers. I know of animes where the studio as sent the American company distributing the show cels and they end up getting ruined because they did not know how to store them. That is the worst thing that could happen. :(

AAh ive ranted too long. I seriously started writting this at 11AM CST. I have been busy off and on so I keep coming back to this and adding a little more trying to finish this response. I am sure a few people have replied since I started this reply. haha sorry >_<
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Post by wELCOME cONSUMER »

safetygirl wrote:This business practice? Happens in most every other collectable hobby. People scour small-town thrift shops to re-sell a $4 dress for $150 at the hipster boutique; there's a lot of doujinshi on YJ, I'm outbid and a month later I see the same doujin as singles on ebay. It's annoying but it's the nature of the game.

What I find -ironic- about this thread is when I compare it to an earlier one about what people paid for a cel vs. what they were offered for it. My, the crowing that went on there about the crazy percentages they were able to resale at! So in that situation making a profit from your cels is okay then? I don't recall any responders there saying that they took the purchaser by the hand, patted them on the head and say, "no, no, I paid $20 for this cel! You don't need to pay me the $500 you're willing to pay... I'll let you have it for $20!" And yes, I'm certain there are those who sell for less than what they paid, but was it "fairness" or just wanting to make a sale?
I just want to point out that receiving insanely high offers is not the same as asking insanely high prices. Definitely not the same. In one case, the buyer is determining the cel's worth and the seller can choose to accept the offer or not. If it's too high, that falls on the buyer's out right determination of the cel's value. In the other case, the seller has made the determination for the buyer and the buyer has to choose either to accept this determination or pass. Offer periods are not the same as strict sales (with price tags).

Again, no one here is ignorant about economics and business. And it's fine for a reseller to sell a cel for profit if he/she can get it. The problem arises when the cels never sell and just sit there at ridiculous prices. Some dealers never pay attention to the market.

It's not just a matter of fair business tactics. It's about smart business tactics. Some of the things dealers do are just plain stupid and it boggles most of our minds when we see it.
Last edited by wELCOME cONSUMER on Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RoboFlonne »

Did you ask $35 or did buyers offer $35? Big difference there. -toni-
The first rule in negotiations in business is never make the first offer. My economics teacher didn't teach me that.

/ok
Some dealers never pay attention to the market.-Toni-
Those people don't want to sell it. That's the reason.

Maybe they are collecting it?
I think the Japanese collectors have every right to collect just as much as we do, even though we don't see their collections as much and they don't have an awesome website like rubberslug to host their galleries. -Iwakuralain-
I agree 100% I kind of feel sorry that they have to hide everything.
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Post by wELCOME cONSUMER »

For such a depressing thread, you can't seem to resist reading and replying, huh RoboFlonne?
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Post by Ms. Poe »

RoboFlonne wrote: I agree 100% I kind of feel sorry that they have to hide everything.
Well, most of what I said earlier is part of it. Their collecting habits differ than ours. There's many reasons why they don't post their stuff online:

1. The things they have were never meant for sale. They were given as gifts, or secretly sold under the table. Showing these images to the public could bring legal ramifications, including retrieval of said goods.

2. They want things to be kept solely for "japanese maniacs" (lol). Posting images to the public would mean everyone, including non-japanese, would have access to view them.

3. They're very competitive, and don't want harrassment from others.

That last one has really struck our "community" as of late. I've know several japanese collectors who have completely taken their galleries offline due to "english" collectors contantly harrassing them about a particular cel. The way the collect and do business is different than ours. Collectors outside of their dynamic charge in nostrils flaring and it gives japanese collectors a bad taste. hence, why they leave or have private galleries, giving out the adress and password only to those they know.

It's the same way with svrl high-end english collectors as well. Having private galleries where the url is secretive, constantly moving, or requires a password to view. They can't show certain things they own to the public, or are sick of the harrassment.

Sorry, went a bit off topic, but ppl are always interested in private galleries and why there's a need for them ^^'.
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Post by jenn-b »

While this thread has had some fabulous posts and responses - thanks Poe! - I want to keep things positive before it deteriorates into general name calling. Please keep that in mind when posting.
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Post by Ms. Poe »

*luv luv on Jenn*

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Post by cutiebunny »

Perhaps I'm reading into things, but after seeing some of the posts on this topic alone, there appears to be quite a bit of animosity towards those who solely collect "high end" items. The notion that a "high end" collector doesn't care as much as someone who doesn't or can't afford to collect these illustrious pieces seems a tad foolish. Additionally, the idea that high end collectors are merely buying these pieces to flaunt their funds because they have some inadquacy in their lives also seems farfetched. I would say that the majority(upwards of 90%) of high-end collectors love anime just as much as everyone else and work hard so that they can have that pinnacle piece(s).

I think it's partily for these reasons that more and more US collectors will likely go the way of the Japanese when it comes to hiding their higher end cels. I was surprised to read in the "How much are you hiding?" topic that there is a large portion of the Beta/RS members that do hide items in their gallery for largely similiar reasons. Some of the reasons that these collectors hide is not purely because they hope to acquire more, but because of the comments they've received from a couple of bad apples who bemoan the fact that prices are too high and they can't get what they want because of these collectors. It saddens me that people feel this way - just imagine some of the artwork we'd see if these high end collectors felt that they wouldn't be criticized for what collecting what they love.

Like Safetygirl mentioned, you can't assign a value to how much one collector loves an anime over another. What you can do is buy what you love and ignore the taunts of others.
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Post by Ronin »

Completely agree there. The thing that annoys me about sellers buying and reselling is that they are try to determine the market value of a cel/series…I know that’s a bold statement…as you can understand where some sellers come from, such as Anime-Link for instance, who makes high-end cels available to us…but you just pay the price or you don’t.
Just say a fantastically new anime that was on par in popularity with Naruto/Bleach came out this year and most of the production art was bought by a few resellers. Would you be happy if they all got together and determined the market value of each sketch/cel as $600 per sheet? I certainly wouldn’t...and I certainly wouldn't buy any artwork from it either.

I think that’s all what most people are trying to say...I have no problem with real collectors who outbid me, Japanese or otherwise...they want it more than me/have more money than me, then fair enough...but when I'm outbid by someone who thinks he can resell it on eBay, then it's bound to pull the wrong nerve. Again, nothing can be done about it, but people just want to vent.
I remember a reseller who used to buy all of his stock on eBay, just to put it back onto eBay at higher prices…I mean what’s the point?? They sold at that price for a reason, so why try and milk it some more?
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