Does it not just hurt your heart to see? TT^TT

MidniteKitten · Post by **MidniteKitten** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:02 pm

I was surfing eBay and saw some Sailor Moon cel lot. I was like "Oh boy Goody!" only to find myself near tears when the page opened. http://cgi.ebay.com/Framed-Sailor-Moon- ... 999.c0.m14 These cels have obviously been neglected and were at one time amazing pieces of history. I messaged the woman/man in hopes that should they have any other cels they possibly remove them from these horrid conditions and salvage if anything what's left of them.

Anyways my question is have you ever seen such killer cels that you just couldn't believe had succumb to such negligence? Such as dream shots, etc?? What did you do about?

I'm sorry if I hurt anyone elses poor eyes by looking at these. I just was so appalled and felt I had to ask/post.

Kagejin · Post by **Kagejin** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:28 pm

Another sad example of why you should never frame cels..... One can only hope the new owner gets a correction layer made for them.

samiamew · Post by **samiamew** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:53 pm

And I quote:

"They have been displayed and there is some line fade common and consistent with other cels of the same age."

where this 'commonality' is from -- I certainly do not know

I do feel the pain looking at these once past beauties

Post by **sensei** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:31 pm

I'm going to auction off my dead kittens: they were really cute and lively when I put them in the zip-loc bags. Present condition is typical of oxygen-breathing mammals deprived of air. Would make a great do-it-yourself taxidermy or biology class dissection experiment. Starting bid, $125.

Fergoshsake think before you expose artwork with intrinsic vice to light 24/7. I like the compromise some people have made of covering framed cels with curtains, so they are only exposed to light when people are looking at them. But how is that different from storing them in an archival portfolio?

Yes, yes, very disturbing. Sorry about the analogy above.

Drac of the Sharp Smiles · Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:36 pm

*SOME* line fading?? The lines are GONE. How sad. I have to say, for a few of mine, there seems to be nothing I can do to stop the deterioration of the lines even though they're in books..... but none are that bad.

This also reminds me of the Ranma cel of Ranma-chan and Kuno that's been on and off Yahoo Japan for a while.... The image is AWESOME, but the lines are simply not there anymore. I want to buy it and make a correction layer, but the owner has it priced like there's nothing wrong with it and I'm not paying top dollar for a cel with no lines. Kind of ticks me off. >_>

Many Sharp Smiles,
--Drac

Nene · Post by **Nene** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:11 pm

I've just looked at the seller's framed DBZ cels too. It's a shame that they are being advertised as having "normal line-fade". It kind of makes you doubt that the seller has learnt anything about cel preservation from this experience. Hopefully these are the only cels they have framed though, as the sight is rather painful.

I remember buying this cel from someone on Ebay: http://nene.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_ ... mID=200719

I bought it framed but swiftly removed the frame when I got it and stopped any further line damage. It felt like a rescue mission lol!

MidniteKitten · Post by **MidniteKitten** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:41 pm

I'm glad to see I wasn't the only person who found the "common with cels this age" statement appalling. I own many Sailor Moon cels, some even older than shown and I have yet to witness the lines completely disappear.

That cat analogy really got me, it's just the only way to make some of the newer or inexperienced "collectors" if they can even call themselves that understand.

I'm glad that while I do carefully matte all my cels with archival materials, that I don't have them framed or on my wall, it just makes a more aesthetic display for when I do look at them. While I admit it took me a bit to learn, I'm glad I did.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Xelloss · Post by **Xelloss** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:32 pm

sensei wrote:I'm going to auction off my dead kittens: they were really cute and lively when I put them in the zip-loc bags. Present condition is typical of oxygen-breathing mammals deprived of air. Would make a great do-it-yourself taxidermy or biology class dissection experiment. Starting bid, $125.

Thanks for making me laugh in a sad situation, sensei

- Karen

redhusky3 · Post by **redhusky3** » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:51 pm

Oh yes it sucks. I also found the "common with cels this age" appaling. The lines were pretty much completely gone gone gone. It hurt to know that those were pretty much gone forever....

Drac of the Sharp Smiles · Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:30 am

To turn this into a more positive post..... Some of those cels I mentioned that are line fading, despite my best efforts to prevent it, are ones I would be really interested in having restored. I know some people have mentioned in the past having cels restored, but I forget the places people talked about going. Does anyone have any direct experience with having a cel restored? For example, what did you have done to it, how much did it cost, how long did it take, where did you go to have it restored? I'd be interested to hear..... even if it's to say: "Meh, I'd not do it again..." or "I learned more and decided not to...."

MSS,
--Drac

GuyvarIII · Post by **GuyvarIII** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:45 am

I posted about my experience with cel restoration by S/R Labs (http://www.srlabs.com/) in this thread: http://www.anime-beta.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=25829.

Cordelia · Post by **Cordelia** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 5:57 am

Oh man...I've always imagined what cels would look like without the lines...now I know.

Actually I feel that framing devalues the cel, even with UV protection, there's bound to be some fading as compared to a cel in a celbook. And if you ever sell it, the next buyer will think twice if they want to remove the cel from the frame. So if you have something valuable, try not to frame it.

Cypress · Post by **Cypress** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:41 pm

You warned me and I looked anyway. I have only myself to blame.

klet · Post by **klet** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:06 am

Wow. Something tells me that this collector is more of a general anime collector than someone who specializes in cels. That damage is not common. It's the result of having the cels framed.

For cels like that, I think you might as well have a fancel artist draw lines on a new layer for you. Anyone know of any good ones?

Sylia · Post by **Sylia** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:13 am

Before going off on people who frame cels (which I know is a common theme in the cel community), please read the description of that auction- it says "DID NOT USE UV BLOCKING GLASS".

It's not that "all" framing is evil, just that bad framing is. It's sad what it did to these cels, but I guess the owner didn't know better and it was obviously a mistake done a long time ago. I don't think it makes them a bad person, but yeah, hoipefully they learned better now and have been keeping the rest in a dark cupboard, as besides the tragic artwork damage it is also money they've lost from the condition the cels are in now.

Good framing however is okay as long as you know what you're getting. I have one cel framed archivally and it does cost a couple of hundred to have that done right, you can't just go down to the local hobby shop and buy cheap materials to do it. The art guy who did it is a trusted person who specialises in archiving art- usually fine art- but I made sure he knew how important the cel was to me and so he treated it respectfully. I don't really care what naysayers say, because technically I think that having a cel in a completely archival-safe, UV protected frame in a cupboard is actually slightly better than having cels in a cel book (which I keep most of mine in- for one thing I couldn't afford to spend what I spent on the framing on every cel, and not every cel warrants it).

Think about it- it it's framed well, it's in a controlled environment, and the use of spacers keeps *anything* (except for a thin sheet of cel bag placed to back it and prevent sticking) from actually touching the cel at all- as opposed to cel book pages leaning on each other even if the book is 'hung'. In addition, if it's archivally matted inside the frame you can tell if the environment is contaminated by acids at any point because it will be visible in the paper.

The cel I have framed for the record already had a little bit of line fade when I got it, and is in exactly the same condition now. I had it up for 4 years on the wall in a very dark back room, and now I keep in it a cupboard completely out of the light but in it's frame, as I no longer felt like having it up. I plan to check the materials are still good or else replace them, and then use the frame for another piece of art I have I would like to have out.

There is nothing wrong with it *if* it's done right, using the utmost caution and sense, and I'm a little sick of cel collectors moaning otherwise when they only have proof from obvious mistakes like this one, and when you don't really have any sort of archival expertise like some of these guys who do art restoration for a living. The idea that 'cel books protect better than completely archival framing and/or similar storage' (in the dark, hung etc) is just folk knowledge. On the other hand I don't treat most of my cels like the Mona Lisa and give them the kind of super-archival treatment that goes way beyond that because they are *not* the Mona Lisa, and most of them don't really deserve that. We just like them because they're fun, pretty, and we want to keep them relatively safe, right?

Sorry for going off on this but I feel a bit justified as I'm always hearing this. There is a big distinction between rubbish DIY cheapo framing and framing done right by someone who knows what they're doing and respects the work (about $200 difference -> j/k

).

Anyway yes, agreed- it's sad the cels are like that. Whether your cels are in books or frames, you need to monitor them and make sure nothing weird's going on- common sense.