My heart sank

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Not Sir Phobos
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My heart sank

Post by Not Sir Phobos »

I was looking up news on the Avatar final movie that I've been anticipating. Only to find out that it will be a live action adaptation of the already made series.

Then the death knell:
With Spielberg getting behind Ghost in the Shell today, DiCaprio doing Akira, and the Wachowskis’ Speed Racer and Ninja Assassin on the way, it will be interesting to see how general American audiences receive these heavily stylistic films. What do you guys and gals think, is this Shyamalan’s The Matrix or, gasp, his Star Wars (he compares it to both)? If anything, it will probably be far more satisfying than the live-action Dragon Ball Z.
Why can't they just leave these classics alone :l
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Post by beatrush »

Because Hollywood ran out of Video Games and Comics to adapt into movies? :l

*does not want to see Keanu as Spike*
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Penguinton
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Post by Penguinton »

Yeah...I've been in a slight depression about them remaking GitS AND THEN I found out about the Akira remake... :l As if the DBZ apparent crapfest wasn't enough. Oh and lets not forget the Death Note movie they're planning on making. And I thought they already made a Speed Racer movie? Are they remaking it again or something? :? Well maybe they'll be a fluke and they won't suck. Or they'll be scrapped during production. :D

Oh and heres what American Akira will probably look like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafd97yJFOI
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Post by Keropi »

I wouldn't mind these adaptions if they actually did a decent job at them, but the chances of them being "good" are low because they don't seem to be taking into account what made the originals special to begin with. They just use the basic outline of the original story and change things from there.

So their adapted movies feel like empty shells with no soul and the uninformed are left to wonder what made the original sources unique to begin with. Better to have no adaptions than only mediocre ones because mediocre adaptions ruin the expectations of the rest of the genre.

Oh well. We'll see what happens I guess.
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Post by sensei »

What next? Japanese remakes of Shakespeare tragedies set during Samurai times? What could possibly go right with that idea?

Oops ... actually "Throne of Blood" [aka "Cobweb Castle"] was pretty good, even if it did inspire some of John Belushi's most inspired Samurai movie parodies.
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Post by Sylia »

Because Hollywood ran out of Video Games and Comics to adapt into movies?
I don't know... some of them are pretty good. Silent Hill was excellent and rather powerful I thought, although it feels like a bit more of an independent film I guess. The first Tomb Raider film was actually really good fun and Angelina Jolie played her spot-on (as to the story changes... it's minor compared to Lara's complete reboot in the later games, really). And the recent Chun-Li film is actually pretty decent, too (a little patchy, but an original version of it nonetheless).

I think most of the time when they remake something ('loosely based on' would be more appropriate in most cases lol), you lose something of whatever the original was, but you get something new that's hopefully worthwhile in a different way. I think an anime/videogame-based film or remake is a success when they can either make something original and unexpected, but good out of it, or else they stay true to the classic version and manage to retain it's original charm (much more difficult it seems). As a fan, hoping for the latter tends to result in disappointment for one reason or another, except for in rare cases. I think if you make allowances for aiming at a compromise between recapturing the classic and telling something original, if it's done well it can be an enjoyable film.

On the other hand, no amount of compromise can make us leave our inner fan at the door if the adaptation/remake is downright direspectful towards the characters, or to the new film seemingly ignoring the genius aspects of the original in favour of cheaper values (which you know, a big Hollywood action movie is likely to do because there's a strong focus on the commercial aspect of the film- i.e. redirect audience's attention to the fact that it's a story about a bunch of hot, cool people with guns, bwahaha, etc [and don't fail to notice how hip we're being with it either 8) ]).

Case in point, when the Resident Evil films decided to demote 'Jill Valentine' to weaker secondary character who ended up watching on the sidelines, in favour of promoting how awesome their newly-created all-powerful Mary Sue fanfic main character is, it doesn't look good (especially on top of the obvious personality change in Jill x.x). The films might still be enjoyable, but it's probably better to take the nods to the game characters out completely if you're going to misuse them.

It's not restricted to Hollywood live action films, by any means. While I like the new version of Bubblegum Crisis (2040) as it's own thing for the most part, it's really hard to forgive their complete lack of respect for what made the original versions of certain characters work (I'm sure you can tell where my hang up lay from my namesake XD). It strongly felt as though they had clear 'favourites' and decided others were worthless and needed to be completely thrown out and replaced. In the end I end up absolutely loving the aspects that they've really poured the most love and energy into, but also feeling somewhat uncomfortable about who or what they sacrificed to prop up that character... And actually, most fanfics have the same problem.

Which boils down to the fact that remakes/adaptations are essentially more akin to fanfiction in a lot of cases. And in the case of anime and game-related ones, especially so... it's often a case of fanboys of whatever thing being let loose to run rampant with their favourite creation. And hey, everyone thinks they know the "REAL" version of their favourite characters. If you're so completely enamoured of the thing or character you like that you'd devote a considerable portion of your artistic energies towards wanting to write it and remake it for other fans, nine times out of ten the chances are that your version might just be a bit... well... fanboyish in some way or other.

Almost all of us do have some fanboyish tendencies (you should hear one of my tiresome Patlabor and Oshii speeches. It's clear I'm way too into all that stuff XD); when you get hints off of their work that the latest writer or director is going to be that kind of fan without any true moderating influences then that's when the big red warning flag drops for me.
Last edited by Sylia on Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sylia »

Wheehoo, Sylia writes essays x.x (sorry everyone)

Also, regarding Ghost in the Shell, 10 years ago I would have been upset if someone mentioned the words "live action remake" (and I was upset, lmao!), but now I really don't know why anyone would get that unhappy about it. As long as they're not encroaching on Oshii's former work and simply trying to copy "Mamoru Oshii's Ghost in the Shell film- in live action" in any way, I don't care (and let's face it, with the style of remakes and adaptations nowadays, it's not likely that they'd do that. Also, I think Oshii and Production IG have some rights over his version and I don't think he's that keen on rolling over from past interviews). The thing is, between Masamune Shirow's original manga and his rather different sequel, Mamoru Oshii's landmark films, and Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex for the TV generation, not to mention various videogames, I think we've had a lot of time to get used to the idea of GitS being a large multi-versioned franchise. The Oshii films are their own thing. Stand Alone Complex is it's own thing, despite visual fanservice nods to an 'alternate continuity' of the film world and the closer relationship to the manga world. And the live action film or films, should they go ahead, will be entirely their own thing too, if the director has sense and understands how the franchise works.

I think if people don't like the live film, that's okay. GitS is a rather unusual franchise... A few hardcore manga fans hated the Oshii films, but had to live with them. I love the Oshii films, and had to live with Stand Alone Complex (which is not a bad anime series, it just captured relatively little of what attracts me to the films... like... the philosophical resonance for example, or the stunning designs. But then I know that when Kenji Kamiyama was interviewed, he did say that they were not going to be covering much of the philosophy, so that's fair enough. They are entitled to make their own thing). Now Stand Alone Complex fans are just going to have to get used to seeing a live action thing happen. In the case of GitS, it doesn't mean that the new thing is now going to forevermore define what GitS is in the popular consciousness, anymore than I think Stand Alone Complex takes away from me loving the Oshii films or their importance.

The Motoko character isn't even the same character to me from one version to the next anyway... it's a little painful to say, "I'm a fan of this character" and know that people are probably getting the wrong idea and assuming you mean the current or now most famous version, but that's the way it is and over time it hardly matters (heh, I've been there a lot as one by one all my favourites would get horribly deconstructed and remade X| ). At the end of the day the only thing you can really go on is a) that you know what you liked, regardless of how the perception of it may be changed by current circumstances and remakes, and b) a major (haha) point of both the Manga and film versions of Ghost in the Shell did concern wanting to 'limit' things, and being limited by desiring to remain what you are. In both versions, the heroine makes the choice to embrace change and continue to adapt, evolve and expand as the opportunity is presented to her. I think it's appropriate that this franchise would also be free to evolve and make drastic leaps, without fans trying to limit it to the past. Maybe they'll make some bad choices with it, but in the case of GitS, with a key message over chasing evolution (in this case meaning simply 'change'), it's part of the natural process and it shouldn't be a limiting or permanent thing.

(Note- the film also has talk and perhaps warning over chasing evolution like it's instinctive without a second thought... lol, maybe they do lament the process a little bit for it's downsides XD)
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Post by Penguinton »

sensei wrote:What next? Japanese remakes of Shakespeare tragedies set during Samurai times? What could possibly go right with that idea?

Oops ... actually "Throne of Blood" [aka "Cobweb Castle"] was pretty good, even if it did inspire some of John Belushi's most inspired Samurai movie parodies.
Let's not forget "Ran". I never seen a better King Lear adaptation. :D

But one can take Shakespeare's plays and modify it to have talking lions and it'll still be good. It's almost impossible to screw them up unless someone tries really really really hard. As long as the spirit of the original story is kept in place it'll be a good show.

I don't think Ghost in the Shell or Akira have strong enough storylines as Shakespeare to be changed radically and still have the same feel to them. I could be total wrong (and I HOPE I am) but the studios seem to plan to Americanize the stories. And the transition has a high probability of being bad. But it could be good like the Seven Samurai was westernized into the Magnificent Seven pretty well. Yet after seeing the trailers for the Dragonball movie my optimism has been sufficently snuffed out.
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Post by Sylia »

I don't think Ghost in the Shell or Akira have strong enough storylines as Shakespeare to be changed radically and still have the same feel to them.
Heh. Perhaps it's a necessary test and it deserves to be ephemeral then. Shakespeare's works and the many things they were themselves based on deserved to endure because they have stood the test of time and still resonate with people. Survival of the fittest. Does anime deserve to endure, or will it be regarded as ephemera? If the core themes are strong enough, original enough, and resonant enough they will live on... On the other hand, the commercial nature of the medium means that corporations and individuals seem too happy to throw away the deeper parts in favour of layering on the hollow, commercial emptier aspects of things. But now, it's not like that wouldn't happen whether live action entered the picture or not... like I said, re-adaptions within the original medium itself are as guilty of it.

[btw, I'm playing devil's advocate with that 'survival of the fittest' stuff, to an extent. Nature is somewhat callous and unfeeling, while I am pro-human and a bit kinder ^^;]
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Post by Penguinton »

Sylia wrote: Shakespeare's works and the many things they were themselves based on deserved to endure because they have stood the test of time and still resonate with people. Survival of the fittest. Does anime deserve to endure, or will it be regarded as ephemera? If the core themes are strong enough, original enough, and resonant enough they will live on... On the other hand, the commercial nature of the medium means that corporations and individuals seem too happy to throw away the deeper parts in favour of layering on the hollow, commercial emptier aspects of things.
Survival of the fittest doesn't really make sense in this case.... Who survives? Those that are the fittest. Who are the fittest? Those who survive. So in other words I we'll just have to wait and see who survives to see if they were in fact the fittest. :)

I'm sure there are some anime that deserve to be watched a hundred years from now. But probably very few like any medium. Most likely titles whose themes anyone can relate to no matter the time period. Shakespeare's works are timeless because modern people can enjoy and relate to tales told hundreds of years ago. Will people hundreds of years in the future relate to Akira? The anime I have strong doubts but the manga...maybe? Who knows?

Saying commercialism hinders anime is rather incorrect. As Shakespeare's and really any classic was written with the intent to get money from it. Shakespeare even tailored his plays for the audience that would be viewing it yet it in no way hindered his storytelling. Of course there are titles being produced just to make money or create a toyline and as an afterthought make a story. Those will no doubt be forgotten with time. But there most likely will be a title or two that stays over the years.

But I think I've somehow got sidetracted from the point of this thread. X| Sorry.

The anime adaptations will be good live action movies if they are able to capture what is good from each title and run with it. Direct shot for shot remakes would obviously be terrible...like that 80's Psycho remake showed us. And I don't think anyone wants that. Yet changing totally the point of GitS would be equally wrong. We'll just have to wait and see what they do. But right now I see bad things on the horizon.
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Post by irmgaard »

Just as Akira Kurosawa admitted his inspiration for Seven Samurai came from the American Westerns he watched as a child (so it’s small surprise the American Western remake of this was so successful), anyone looking at Ghost in the Shell will see its underling theme’s (what defines someone as human, rather than machine?) obvious origins in American writer Philip K. Dick’s 1968 novel “Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?â€
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Post by Sylia »

Most likely titles whose themes anyone can relate to no matter the time period. Shakespeare's works are timeless because modern people can enjoy and relate to tales told hundreds of years ago.
Yes, *exactly* ^^. Thank you!

I apologise for the intentionally provocative nature of my previous posts, but they were made with the intention of getting people to talk about it since I thought it would spur some thoughts. I like both of your comments.
anyone looking at Ghost in the Shell will see its underling theme’s (what defines someone as human, rather than machine?) obvious origins in American writer Philip K. Dick’s 1968 novel “Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?â€
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Post by irmgaard »

[quote="Sylia"][quote="irmgaard"]anyone looking at Ghost in the Shell will see its underling theme’s (what defines someone as human, rather than machine?) obvious origins in American writer Philip K. Dick’s 1968 novel “Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?â€
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Post by jenn-b »

As far as the Avatar movie goes....

I remember seeing an interview with Shyamalan and the two creators on the last DVD of season 3. The guys seemed really excited to be working with Shyamalan, and I sort-of got the feeling that they had a lot of input into the movie. Of course, all of this was before the huge feud over the Avatar title.

I have really not been impressed with any of Shyamalan’s recent movies, so I'm not going to hold my breath!
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Post by Sylia »

Of course, all of this was before the huge feud over the Avatar title.
What was the huge feud? 8O Are they not going to use Avatar as the title?
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