Is it me...

Not Sir Phobos · Post by **Not Sir Phobos** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:37 pm

I'd say that percentage wise it's about the same. It's that there is more animation out there in general which means that there will be more crap. However more gems come out also.

Avatar really blew me away, I was thuroughly impressed with the series and felt that it upped the bar a notch even for japanese animation.

I haven't really seen much anime recently that gripped me the was anime did 10 years ago. Then I watched Gurren Lagaan and it renewed my hope.

Can we include 3d animation in this discussion? As 2d animatioin is performed on computers these days anyhow I'd say that it is relevant to this topic. Madagascar 2 was awesome and I'd say that is was a gem of an animated movie as well.

MDKiller1 · Post by **MDKiller1** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:47 pm

I happen to think that it has gone down hill. Look at the Disney movies from like Beauty and the Beast and back. I really like the animation. However look at the newer ones (besides the lion king) it seems the animation has gone down hill for them.

I also dont agree with alot of the cartoons these days. My 2 year old isnt allow to watch anything on cartoon network. He watches Disney channel in the mornings. An we have gone out and bought alot of 80's-90's cartoons for him to watch since we dont like the cartoons nowdays..

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:46 pm

TB - I understood you and I wasn't saying you were wrong. I just think it is fruitless to use shows like Family Guy in a discussion like this. The show was never meant to be artistic. It's like using Flava of Love as an example of the downfall of dramatic television.

I also have to agree about LT. I go back and watch some of those as an adult and find things hidden in there that I did not see as a kid.

Sylia · Post by **Sylia** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:25 am

Hm... the only cartoon I ever really watch from time to time is Futurama. There's just something good about it, it's entertaining and doesn't annoy me (I think it's fairly innocent). I liked the older seasons of The Simpsons, too (not so much the newer ones), and I think Avatar is actually quite a nice and well-done children's cartoon from the bunch of episodes I've seen of it (reminds me a lot of the kind of cartoons I grew up watching; it's well-intentioned).

On the other hand, I can't stand anything Cartoon Network has ever done right from the days of "Cow and Chicken" and "Johnny Bravo" when I was an older kid, with the exception of the "Power Puff Girls" which is relatively ok and actually has a few really good eps (for some reason I really like 'Him'... I like trying to imitate his voice XD).

I never liked South Park. There's a couple of amusing things that 've seen people recycle from it, but watching the actual show itself is like... impossible for me. Similarly, I just don't get any of that Adult Swim stuff on Cartoon Network. It seems pointless... I feel like I'm actually damaging brain cels if I even stare for a a few minutes. And it is a blank stare- that's exactly what it causes for me. I don't want to actively make myself dumb... it feels like some terrible taboo, akin to burning books or something O_o. I once tried to get it because all my university class mates at one point seemed to get it and I wondered what people would see in those things, but I just can't access it and I really don't want to based on what I've seen.

Also Family Guy... that completely baffles me x.x. Even with the James Woods episodes (love that actor XD), I can't like it and it really makes me completely puzzled as to why so many people I know like it. It just seems obnoxious/stupid/ugly, and I don't find that combination funny. Which kind of sums up how a lot of the supposedly "adult" genre of cartoons feels in general. I'm sorry, I know everyone loves it... I guess I just don't fit in ^^;.

Toonybabe- I found your comments really interesting and intelligently thought out ^^. Thanks for the read... What caught my eye in particular was the mention of anaesthetising... I've thought a lot about that recently and I think you do an awful lot of self-anaesthesing in general through our immersion in pop culture, videogames, anime, celebrities, toys and other kinds of the multitude of things we've built up around us that enable adults now to stay as teenagers all through our 20s and 30s sometimes. I think there's an element of that to being part of "geek culture" in a way especially too (I realise this is kind of a brave and bold thing to say on a forum like this but... it's relevant).

I think like with a lot of stuff we just have *too much* all the time. Too many ways to be escapist, too many opportunities to loose our way and numb ourselves with whatever's around. It's usually that it's okay to enjoy things, but you've still got to be maturing and actually learning to have a life. Being dependant on cartoons aimed at kids and young people as a main entertainment fix is a prime example... after a certain amount of years of the new stuff no longer doing it for you, you've got to accept that you've grown past that kid stage of your life and move on (hanging onto a few of the good oldies for comfort's sake is always a good idea though ^^. Heck, I played some Sonic 1 today and enjoyed the brief revisit to my 12 year old game-playing obsession ^^). But generally, the key in life is balance.

The Mr. Men Show on Cartoon Network. And that's educational only in the loosest terms of the word. They apparently only play it in the early mornings. But it does makes my day when I get up to go to work. Oh Mr. Persnickety you so shouldn't hang out with Mr. Messy.

Lol... I can't believe it took them so long to make the cartoon of the Mr. Men XD. Loved those books as a child (back in the 80s... also, before he created the "Little Miss" series to politically correct the gender imbalance XD) ^^. I think they lose something in translation from those little square books to an animated series, but hey. I also think it's kinda funny that they renamed Mr. Fusspot "Mr. Persnickety" for the cartoon XD. I guess the name didn't translate so well.

Sorry for excessively long post; I had more to say than I realised ^^;

Anyway, the maturity level in most mass-market stuff isn't really there anyway, so I just stick to a few things I really like and live and let live now. I don't think you can really prevent the human race from dumbing down and selling out culture en masse if that's what it wants to do. Hopefully if you can express yourself creatively yourself and have something positive and active to say, and if there are always people like that, the spark of intellect will be kept alive. If anything I'd take the lack of good stuff in one medium as an opportunity to look outside of it (the world is a big place), or better still to inspire you to move from being a passive consumer kept passive by a constant feed of media and distractions into, instead, an active, creative individual who excerises your own individuality and will to create and take power over your own world.

toonybabe · Post by **toonybabe** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:52 pm

Shampoo wrote: But to say Looney Tunes is on a different sophisticated
level humor-wise as say, Ventures, Futurama etc, is almost
absurd. They both use almost the same parody/satire
techniques- the latter being a lil more raunchy and
tweaked for today's crowd
So are we speaking strictly about animation or
jokes/punchlines?
Do peeps here remember vintage LT? Bejesus! O_O
Theres some episodes that cant even be broadcast anymore (banned)
for depicting a "jap" gibbering with 2 slants for eyes ,
trigger-happy rednecks, blackfaced characters, southern
slave-holders, angry Russians, flamer wrestlers,
and geez, the sex jokes- even jabs atp op culture and current celebrities.
God I loved Looney Tunes. LOL!

toony wrote:Is there anyone who works in the animation industry who knows what is going on? Because I don't. I know its not the artists/animators because I oogle their personal blogs and online portfolios all the time and their work is amazing. I wish I would see some if it turned into shows. It really does make me sad, but it motivates me to work my ass off in art school - to make sure my ideas don't die like the rest of the culture.
I work in illustration field and do some animation
projects here at work.
I can EASILY tell you what it is -- its called beancounters.

The suits call the shot, not the artist. Marketing too,
all about the numbers and from there it trickles down
to the illustration/multi-media folks.
We take orders and cater to please the client aka
the A.Ds, managers, project leaders:
your in Illustration, you should have
already heard this by now from one of your professors.

Im sorry but its a bubble that will burst once you graduate.
As much as its nice to have ideas and wonderful creations,
if you dont have any money to pursue them on your
own or noone willing to buy them-- your left with just that, an idea.

Its a crappy realisation but eh.
Thats why most resort to freelancing after
they work corporate. LOL!

Children's programs; so far we've talked mostly
about TEEN and adult programs. There are still some
nice ones out there you just have to dig and sift thru
the crap.
I really like Foster's and Fairly Odd Parents despite
the Adobe illustrator jerkiness and stiff movements
but the design and character personalities were well established.
Dora is cute too (thou thats in the preschool-grade
school category.) I dont know if Disney even plays Kim Possible
but that was a aesthtically pleasing show, loved the stylizations!

Shampoo - yes, I was talking animation-wise. I was comparing Family Guy's level of animation to Looney Tunes. I know Looney Tunes had its own amount of racial puns, sex jokes and making fun of celebrities but that wasn't its most defining characteristic. The humor of LT is 90% visual and came from the animators more than the writers. The humor comes when you see the frying pan hitting Sylvester's face (and the visual way it pays off) and the look on Wile E. Coyote face when he finally realizes his latest plan is going to blow up in his face (literally lol). Even when they were making fun of celebrities it was the caricature of them, the visual element, that was most amusing. In a way LT is more innocent than Family Guy but then sometimes it is worse because the racial puns were so visually exaggerated.

And yes, I hear my professors complain about the bean counters all the time! Lol, thats what they call them. I'm an illustration major and I eventually it would be nice to work in the animation industry (esp. as a character designer) but I would like to establish myself as an writer/illustrator first. Like how Peter de Seve and Carter Goodrich do character design for a lot of the 3D movies. I would really like to write and illustrate children's books (all levels). And I know its really really bad right now in almost all artistic industries but I am really dedicated to my work and my artistic vision. I will try to work with the industry as it is, but if there is no way for me put food on the table and keep my artistic integrity (if I am forced to create crap for a living) I will leave it. If it chokes me creatively or burns me out (in a bad way), I will leave it. I am taking a couple years after art school to get my masters in education as a back-up plan. I would rather teach kids my whole life and freelance on the side or at least keep working on my art while I teach. Right now I am so dedicated to learning how to manifest my visions, i.e how to do art, I am not at the point yet where I can focus a lot of energy worrying about the future. I am just concentrating on actually producing work that I can be really proud of. Really, until I do that I have no business worrying about it. I have hope though. After seeing all the talented professionals I've met who are struggling I really shouldn't have any hope, but I still do. I'm ready to fight for it.

And I totally forgot about Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends. I like that one - not as much as PP Girls or Dexter, though. But I haven't seen it aired in a while. And there are some educational shows for younger kids that I like. I really like Between the Lions on PBS and Sesame Street is still going strong. It was so funny - my mom and I were watching Sesame Street one morning and they were counting to 7. My mom goes "Oh no, they've dumbed this down since you were a kid." And I said "No way, how do you mean?" She said "Back when you watched it, they used to count to 40!" I think she was joking but I'm really not sure. And OMG, I can't even get started complaining about how the educational shows are dumbing kids down. You can't tell me they are learning from Hip Hop Harry compared to Wishbone, Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego, and Bill Nye the Science Guy. Seriously, just sit down and watch children's educational programing for one morning. You will be amazed by what you won't learn.

Blueheaven wrote: TB - I understood you and I wasn't saying you were wrong. I just think it is fruitless to use shows like Family Guy in a discussion like this. The show was never meant to be artistic. It's like using Flava of Love as an example of the downfall of dramatic television.

Blueheaven - Flava of Love. LOL. Ya we are on the same page. It was just ironic that when this thread was started, the only shows anyone could think of that they liked were Family Guy, Venture Bros, Simpsons, etc. That alone proved the point of the thread lol. We really don't have any other choices. And thats pathetic. But it will change...someday.

EternityOfPain · Post by **EternityOfPain** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:57 pm

I have no beef with animation done in the US, I just simply perfer the animation style that's created in Japan..

As far as the topic, everyone has pretty much said anything I would say.. So.. Ill just nod in the motion that content wise, storywise etc, animation has gone down hill for the most part. Majority of my favorite series are 80s + 90s. Only a handful of favorites from 2000+ (of course Juuni Kokki being one

)

majinuub · Post by **majinuub** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:07 am

I can't speak for current japan anime since I'm not up to date with the newest shows. But I will say that I'm dissapointed about the more simplistic new designs from some of my old favorites(Birdy the Mighty for example). I remember vintage LT and I would sometimes remember when some parts were censored(the text ass, someone shooting themselves etc.). I noticed that too many shows are influenced by Japan anime, and at times it's in the worst way(Kappa Mikey is a perfect example of this).

BTW does anyone here remember MTV's Beavis and Butthead or Daria?

Caroline · Post by **Caroline** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:46 pm

i've only sifted through everyone's posts, so im sorry if i am repeating someone else's point. as someone who is active in animation and knows some of the creators mentioned, i feel i can share some perspective.

firstly, this is an unfair question, or it just needs to be rephrased. why is american content getting worse? i wouldn't say it is getting worse, per se. however, it is increasingly difficult to sell content in the tween market. the major networks have specific criteria, by default forcing smaller production companies to meet those demands. we are also in bad economic times which is not good for the development of new content.

as far as cn or nick goes, they do not have an educational criteria in the tweens. this falls into their preschool demographic (ie. dora, diego, nihao). most of the shows people are mentioning here are not written or aimed for a "kid's" or tween demographic, they are prime time (family guy, american dad), or aimed towards our demo (south park, adult swim...) which is an 18-32, young adults.

right now we are in an industry bound to ratings and mergers. studios used to take risks on new ideas, and now we are seeing more co-production between major studios (ie. "penguins", nick/dreamworks). they want a garaunteed hit. right now, the market is turning into a boy's world because those are the shows getting high ratings. disney has taken note of this, and is currently creating a new channel called disney XD and all of the new content is boy's related. in today's market, powerpuff girls might not have sold. we are also losing timeslots to the popularity of live-action tween shows.

i think that if you are looking for good american content, you need to pay close attention but it is there. for example, "making fiends", originally slated for nickeldeon broadcast, is now airing on nicktoons. it's a cute and very modern cartoon. but you need to look for it. and cartoon network has a new show slated for this spring called "hero: 108" that is a beautiful, big story, and a hella lot of characters... 108 of them.

unfortunately, it's going to take more than one really kickass and left-field idea to change an entire industry... but i have faith.

Sylia · Post by **Sylia** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:33 am

^ above post was a pretty interesting read too, thanks ^^!

I forgot that there's one other CN cartoon I really liked stylistically back in the day- Samurai Jack ^^. I don't remember if anyone else mentioned it or not, but that was a good one ^^.

majinuub · Post by **majinuub** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:56 pm

Caroline-I may have worded what I meant to ask wrong, but the reason I asked this was because, like someone previously mentioned, the latest trend of some American shows look like the same edgy premature nonsense I've been seen before and not in a good way. I even recall some of the attempts to revive the old shows and make them edgy for the mature crowd(new TMNT, Loony Tunes Unleased ugh...). I'm not talking about all the latest shows, as some have proven to be great, and not all animated series made around the 90's were good. WB, Nick, Fox and CN were my favorite networks for watching animated series and most of the newest "must see" shows that are currently airing on them are just plain unappealing to me. And don't get me started on some of the new superhero shows(Batman BaaB, Legion of Superheroes, Avengers). I'll give the newest CN show you mentioned a chance though as it does look unique.

Caroline wrote:most of the shows people are mentioning here are not written or aimed for a "kid's" or tween demographic, they are prime time (family guy, american dad), or aimed towards our demo (south park, adult swim...) which is an 18-32, young adults.

Actually, animaniacs was the first show mentioned in this thread, and while aimed at kids/tweens, it had the mass-appeal. Anyway, I appreciate any explanation from people working in this field.

jcaliff · Post by **jcaliff** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:33 am

I think all ages tend to look back on their childhood with rose colored glasses. In every age, for every really good cartoon there have always been a bunch that were pure crap. Anyone who thinks that most TV animation from the 70s-80s is better than what they're making now needs to go back and spend some time actually watching those shows. Between the herky-jerky animation, constantly recycled footage and backgrounds, awkward voice overs, poor editing, and attempts to make 1/2 hour long advertisements into something with a moral or educational message, those were, in many cases, some of the worst things I've ever seen. Some of them are almost unwatchable now.

It's mostly because of budget of course. In the 40s, animated shorts had bigger relative budgets and they were made to show in theaters. Theatrical animation has always been higher quality than TV animation. With TV, suddenly you've got to make new shows for whole tv season and budget per episode is much smaller. You have studios like HB coming up with cost saving techniques like having the heads on separate cels from the bodies so that the bodies don't have to be redrawn (which is why almost every character has a tie or collar). In the late 80s and early 90s, when WB came along and decided to make animation like Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, and B:TOS, that quality was the exception rather than the rule. You might call it a minor renaissance for the TV animation industry, except that it really didn't go much beyond WB studio. Fox tried with stuff like Pirates of Dark Water and Peter Pan and the Pirates, but none of those shows were really sucessful for the amount of money they sunk into them. With the advent of computers, they're able to make much smoother looking animation for less money, but it doesn't change the fact that for most companies they still don't want to spend a lot of money on it. As for the rise of very stylized cartoons since the late 90s, I think the blame for that lies squarely with Ren and Stimpy and Beavis and Butthead. The sucess of those two shows gave rise to grotesque and bizarre animation.

As far as anime is concerned, 90 percent of it has always been terrible. It's just that in the past, most of the really bad stuff didn't make it overseas. Now with the popularity and the internet, you get the opportunity to watch almost all of it, good and bad.

Caroline · Post by **Caroline** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:21 am

jcaliff wrote: With the advent of computers, they're able to make much smoother looking animation for less money, but it doesn't change the fact that for most companies they still don't want to spend a lot of money on it. As for the rise of very stylized cartoons since the late 90s, I think the blame for that lies squarely with Ren and Stimpy and Beavis and Butthead. The sucess of those two shows gave rise to grotesque and bizarre animation.

not to start the 2d vs 3d argument, but it is a common misconception that 3d is the cheaper route. most 3d tv productions cost the same, if not more expensive than traditional. when it comes to the ratings however, then i agree it is a numbers game. as for mike's or ren and stimpy's influence, the spumpo kids are the first to admit it. some now work on spongebob, a good example of the lasting impression. it's a style.

moonrabitt · Post by **moonrabitt** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:54 am

I dislike 3d animation..It does not have the same feel as 2d...
I guess it depends on the show...
I can use this as an example (even if it's Japanese)
2d-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cywFZVEhrBo
3d-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DRFb0hO ... re=related
(well it might look cool at first, but something about it is off -_-
---------------------------------------------------------------
The shows I like are: King of the Hill, south park..and basically almost Nothing on Cartoon netowork...they really have gone down-hill.....
I guess the only one with good animation is Avatar...

backlotanimation · Post by **backlotanimation** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:03 am

Hiya Folks,

If you ever wanted to know or to read about what has happened to all animation and it's production and why it has gotten so bad,you need to read this book by Norman M. Klein.
Title is: (7 minutes, Life and death of the American animated cartoon).
I'm sure you will find all the answers your looking for in this book,it should be a book on all animation fans book shelf.

http://backlotanimation.rubberslug.com/ ... mID=108265

All the info needed to find this book is on this link,it can be hard to find but is well worth the effort.

Roy

DBA Backlotanimation

jcaliff · Post by **jcaliff** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:23 am

Caroline wrote:
jcaliff wrote: With the advent of computers, they're able to make much smoother looking animation for less money, but it doesn't change the fact that for most companies they still don't want to spend a lot of money on it. As for the rise of very stylized cartoons since the late 90s, I think the blame for that lies squarely with Ren and Stimpy and Beavis and Butthead. The sucess of those two shows gave rise to grotesque and bizarre animation.
not to start the 2d vs 3d argument, but it is a common misconception that 3d is the cheaper route. most 3d tv productions cost the same, if not more expensive than traditional. when it comes to the ratings however, then i agree it is a numbers game. as for mike's or ren and stimpy's influence, the spumpo kids are the first to admit it. some now work on spongebob, a good example of the lasting impression. it's a style.

By computer, I wasn't really talking about 3d. I was actually thinking of 2d computer assisted animation. But even if 3d costs about the same as traditional, it's still giving a smoother animated appearance than animation done by traditional methods for television.

Anime-Beta TNG

Is it me...

book on the subject of animations down fall.