Cels being used in "image galleries"

[MeganD.]

Howdy fellow collectors,

I've had a rare day off and in my non-productive glory spend much of it Googling without purpose. I came across a Dragonball site with an image gallery containing hundreds of cel scans gathered from across the internet. In the past I've seen sites take cel scans and post them as part of their image gallery and I remember one particular site sparked much discussion on Animanga a few years back. In fact, this current site I came across seems to either be done by the same webmaster who was discussed on Animanga or they directly lifted the scans from the old site...which I have to admit would be a little amusing.

This site, like the old, doesn't give any type of credit to the owner of the cel or even explain the images are actual production artwork. What was different and what I found the most disconcerting was after clicking on the thumbnails they send you to large scans of the cels on pages littered with blatant advertisements. Seeing my cels under an enormous "click here if you want to win a brand new dvd player" started to bring out the territorial side of me. In short, I really felt as if this site was "pushing their luck" so to speak.

Now I know having links back to the respective cel's galleries would be a difficult task considering a) there are so many of the cels and b) the simple fact cels change hands so often. In fact, I think several scans of the cels I own were lifted prior to me purchasing them as a few are quite obviously cropped to, what I believe, cut out a watermark.

I'm wondering what other collectors feel about this. This insane amount of advertising on the page really brought this issue to another level for me and I'd love to hear what you all think of it. Some of you may already know what site I'm speaking of and I'd post a link but I'd like to contact the owner myself prior to doing so. Heck, we ARE a creative community and perhaps someone can come up with a solution I haven't thought of or maybe bap me over the head and tell me to just let it go.

Thanks in advance for comments/help!

-Megan

[Not Sir Phobos]

This is my take on posting images on the Intranet:

If you don't want it ripped off then don't put it on the internet.

Beyond that what we own are studio's and artist's intellectual property and we hold no rights to them. I do think it's pushing a little far to make money off of other people's scans however, but again, that's the studio's problem to curtail someone making money off their property without giving them a cut.

These are my uneducated opinions and if someone can correct me please do

[zerospace]

I agree with you NSP.. but then again, there's a reason 4D and I don't post huge scans of our cels

[Not Sir Phobos]

I agree with you NSP.. but then again, there's a reason 4D and I don't post huge scans of our cels

Oh, is it because your scanner isn't big enough??

Ba dum bum

[Cloud]

Huh. Good reasoning. Again, Is there only one?

[zerospace]

I agree with you NSP.. but then again, there's a reason 4D and I don't post huge scans of our cels

Oh, is it because your scanner isn't big enough??

Ba dum bum

Argh!! yep, that's it.. really...

[irmgaard]

Beyond that what we own are studio's and artist's intellectual property and we hold no rights to them.

Well, we cel owners do have some usage rights. We have the right to sell the actual cel (not its image). We have the right to display the cel in our home(no definitive US ruling as to whether or not this includes electronic display on personal webpages). We certainly do not have, unless specifically obtained from the copyright holders, the right to grant reproduction rights of these images to others. Credit lines refer to the owners of the copyright of an image, so we certainly should not expect "credit" lines from others as the owners of these cels, as it is being questioned whether or not owning such an image allows us to digitally reproduce it for display ourselves.

[MeganD.]

This is my take on posting images on the Intranet:

If you don't want it ripped off then don't put it on the internet.

For all practical purposes, I agree with you. And believe me, I understand the problematic situation of trying to claim any sort of right to a production cel. Yet, on the other hand, I've seen numerous screencapture sections on sites where the images were captured by the webmaster and they clearly state to not take the images. I'm talking reputable sites here, not just hastily thrown together fansites. I think if there's a case for screencaptures there's got to be an even better argument for cels.

Amazingly enough, even on the site in question they state "Do not take anything off this site without permission." Upon reading that I couldn't help but chuckle a bit.

Of course, regardless of disclaimer I know if someone really wants an image badly enough, they can get it. It's part of the reason I don't use watermarks, don't disable right clicking on my site (when it was up..heh), and don't shy away from large scans. I figure it's mostly fellow cel collectors looking at them anyway. And I really don't have a problem with a purely informational site using my cels in their image galleries without stating I'm the owner or even making it clear they don't own the cels. What does get my goat is this site appears to be making a profit and it's a little gutsy of them to take it this far with images where they definitely didn't create the character (of course we couldn't have galleries if this were truly a problem), didn't scan the image (yet, I know I've got a cel scan or two I've taken from the previous owner...lazy Megan!), they don't own the piece (but what about graveyard sections?) and didn't ask permission to use it (this is the biggy for me). One or two of these, ok, but ALL of them AND they are making money off it?

Thanks for providing your thoughts Not Sir Phobos (and others ). I figure it boils down to an ethical issue and not really a legal one, although I'm no expert on the ladder.

Have a good one all!
Megan

[Not Sir Phobos]

and didn't ask permission to use it (this is the biggy for me). One or two of these, ok, but ALL of them AND they are making money off it?

Apart from it being ethically wrong, I think going in and copying people's cel scans and turning a profit on it is legally wrong. There has got to be no way it's legal!

[irmgaard]

"Do not take anything off this site without permission." Upon reading that I couldn't help but chuckle a bit.

Yes, because they likely have no rights to these copyrighted images/characters

and it's a little gutsy of them to take it this far with images where they definitely didn't create the character (of course we couldn't have galleries if this were truly a problem)

That's a little like saying, "of course we can put copyrighted songs on the web because they are there." The courts have ruled differently in that case.

didn't scan the image

Scanning an image confers no rights, and can be seen as infringement

and they don't own the piece

Confers some display rights, as of this date legally undecided in the US if this includes display on personal websites.

and didn't ask permission to use it

They would have to ask for and receive permission from the copyright holder, the owner of the cel has no legal right to grant or deny reproduction rights unless specifically obtained from the copyright holder.

I figure it boils down to an ethical issue and not really a legal one

Sometimes they are one and the same, sometimes not.

[MeganD.]

"Do not take anything off this site without permission." Upon reading that I couldn't help but chuckle a bit.

Yes, because they likely have no rights to these copyrighted images/characters

Actually I found it ironic primarily because the webmaster who wrote the disclaimer took hundreds of images without permission and advertises them as a huge draw to his site. He claims to have one of the largest Dragonball image galleries on the net. So basically you can surmise he believes it's alright for him to take images from sites, but no one should take them from his.

and it's a little gutsy of them to take it this far with images where they definitely didn't create the character (of course we couldn't have galleries if this were truly a problem)

That's a little like saying, "of course we can put copyrighted songs on the web because they are there." The courts have ruled differently in that case.

Hmm, I'm not sure I'm seeing your point here. The list began with what I feel is the least practical argument against taking images and worked it's way down to the strongest. If there is legal precident against using images from anime on websites, well shoot, the problem is much larger than cel scans being taken from galleries.

and didn't ask permission to use it

They would have to ask for and receive permission from the copyright holder, the owner of the cel has no legal right to grant or deny reproduction rights unless specifically obtained from the copyright holder.

This is my point about ethical vs. legal. I realize it may not be illegal per se to have taken the images, but I believe it IS against an "online curtesy code" which is supported by the webmaster's own disclaimer. The ethical question of him taking them is then further exaserbated by his heavy use of banner ads.

I figure it boils down to an ethical issue and not really a legal one

Sometimes they are one and the same, sometimes not.

Very true, sir. I just wish it were more of the "one and the same" side though.

I very much enjoyed your informed responses! I learned quite a bit. I notice you manage an art gallery which would probably account for why you have knowledge on the subject. Have you come across similar issues in the past?

Thanks again!
Megan

[irmgaard]

Have you come across similar issues in the past?

I have frequently acted as an artist's agent/representative in contract negotiations for image reproduction rights and I have previously conducted seminars on copyright/reproduction issues at trade conventions.



But I still can't stop downloading BLEACH fansubs!

[Not Sir Phobos]

I have frequently acted as an artist's agent/representative in contract negotiations for image reproduction rights and I have previously conducted seminars on copyright/reproduction issues at trade conventions