Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

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theultimatebrucelee
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Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by theultimatebrucelee »

I might not be around long enough in this hobby to question Mandarake's long established name but, recently I've noticed that some of the artwork sold on their everyday auction might not carry any authenticity whatsoever.

take this future dairy auction I just saw today for example: http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auc_e/item ... 7350100005

tell me this is not a third rate animator's random doodle that he/she just randomly drew up and listed them on mandarake in hope to make a bit extra side cash.

the sketches are barely legible if at all and they are all draw on the same kind of paper, no visible correction or any sequence number either. and if this is not suspicious enough, when comparing it with the two previous suspicious auctions here from about a month ago:
http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auc_e/item ... 6763000644
http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auc_e/item ... 7350100003

same level roughness, same exact art style that starts with a cross/x mark on the face( so prably drew by same person). same colors of color pencil outline, same kind of paper used, even same starting price...and similar ending price too. out of 3 auctions, two from Nakano store and one from Akihabara store. Since I'm guessing that there is no way to track who bids on what, the person who listed those sketches could just be shill bidding or have people he know to bid for them to jack up price. I mention this because hours before the previous two auctions ended, they were still at a few thousand yen price with just 2 or 3 bids. Of course this is also assuming if the seller would get a big enough portion of the ending price.

Please share your thoughts.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by zerospace »

Last time I checked, no one lists anything on Mandarake but Mandarake -- someone else, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. And my understanding is that Mandarake attempts to authenticate everything it sells -- or so I've heard.

That said, I gotta ask: what makes you think that a rough sketch with an "x" on the face is unauthentic just because it's really rough? If the "x" you're referring to is the "+" that seems to go through the middle of the face in every drawing, that's a common drawing technique used to place the elements of the face (eyes, nose, ears) in the correct locations. They don't exactly go straight to douga in the animation process, you know ;). I've seen lots of roughs without sequence information for various CG series -- I assume because a single layout is done of a key frame in the scene and the rest of the sequence is fleshed out based on this, so the original roughs of the scenes don't have sequence info because they're just roughing out the scene.

One other thing I saw in one of those listings: what random animator takes a piece of paper and tapes registration holes to the top if they're just drawing a doodle to sell (especially when that drawing already has registration holes down the side?)

Any other reason why you think those listings are suspicious? Because I'm failing to understand why -- other than the lack of sequence numbers.

Oh.. and the pink paper is also something I've seen lots of -- both pink and yellow, especially for roughs or corrections.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by teggacat »

I have to agree with zerospace rather strongly.
I have countless roughs from many different series with the guideline cross or "x"
as you call it. Its just the way they are done.
Personally I'd be more suspicious of foul play on YJ, but not really because of the
reasons you stated
just my two yen........
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by graymouser »

I have no idea regarding those particular items, but overall their reputation is pretty good; especially when compared to YJ. On YJ there are a lot of different people selling on the same auction site. On Mandarake, the individual shops (all owned by the same company) buy/trade the items from collectors, and then resell them either in their store or online.

That is not to say they have never had problems. I have seen cases where they have messed up and reproduction cels have been listed as production. They have several shops in a variety of locations. Not everyone that trades with them is honest and not every shop has an expert in every collectable item they deal with. I seem to remember that most of the time that there have been mistakes in identifying items, describing damage, or translating they have tried to make amends. I have only heard of a few times where people were unhappy when disputes arise. None of these cases have been recent though. The biggest complaint I have heard is with sketch sets. Specifically, that they show the best pieces and the value of the unseen pieces is a bit of a c**p shoot.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by sensei »

I'd say these are pretty similar to rough genga that I've seen from Toei's Powerpuff Girls Z. These often show the beginning cross-hatched egg image that animators routinely use for first efforts (otherwise it's tempting to put the eyes too high up to look realistic). And they use a variety of colored pencil for the beginning "scribbles" and work them up more boldly in graphite. I'd assume that these are the contents of the trashcan where a key animator or several of them put their first drafts after these compositions have been transferred to a clean-up drawing. Certainly nothing here that suggests inauthenticity, just the "really rough" stages that come before the finalizing of the genga.

And if the gengas are drawn digitally on a CGI tablet or computer screen, perhaps this "really rough" stage might just be the only part of the animation that is available to collectors.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by theultimatebrucelee »

Thanks for everyone's knowledgeable inputs :)

judging by everyone's reply Mandarake has a pretty solid reputable online auction just like their online shop, now I can at least put my mind to ease whenever I bid in the future. I suppose this would partly be a good explanation for those seemingly absurd ending prices I see from time to time.

zerospace wrote:what random animator takes a piece of paper and tapes registration holes to the top if they're just drawing a doodle to sell (especially when that drawing already has registration holes down the side?)
this is good point, having partially grew up in the country famous for our bootlegs I have the tendency of superstition. that and my judgment for authenticity has always been set on default with my other collection where bootlegs would pop out left and right.
sensei wrote:And if the gengas are drawn digitally on a CGI tablet or computer screen, perhaps this "really rough" stage might just be the only part of the animation that is available to collectors.
Thanks for the brief explanation sensei, and I would hope to see some less rough kind of sketches from this series someday, if they exist.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by JWR »

While I have had my problems with Mandy auctions in the past these sketches appear to be correct roughs.
I have a lot of simular ones from the AMG TV http://ryan.rubberslug.com/gallery/mast ... esID=18937
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by theultimatebrucelee »

yes they do look pretty similar. I just wish some of those would have some sequence number or description on them like nearly half of your AMG roughs. but zerospace's explanation might fit in this case.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by ReiTheJelly »

Some sketches are just really, really rough. Heck, take a look at all the submissions for the A-B Sketch Contests in the "worst" category! :rollin
http://2010sketch.zero-space.net/viewen ... p?id=Worst
http://www.gabe.ch/award-sketch2011/vie ... p?id=Worst
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by theultimatebrucelee »

I think...with my drawing skill I can replica some of those sketches but make them look nicer lol

I was wondering, does anyone know if there is a general art market value comparison with this kind of rough sketches compared to its counterpart Genga and Douga, assuming they exist...like how much more or less preferred and valuable etc.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by iceman57 »

theultimatebrucelee wrote:I was wondering, does anyone know if there is a general art market value comparison with this kind of rough sketches compared to its counterpart Genga and Douga, assuming they exist...like how much more or less preferred and valuable etc.
Sure, art market exists in Europe since Q4 2009 with the first auction house auction including anime art. Evolved end 2009/begin 2010 with expert COAs (global insurance company approved) in order to secure auction houses from fakes and goofies, providing enough safety to set several world records out of Japan, able to figure out high-ends valid pricings that can easily fit an art insurance contract.

About your question, whatever the artwork is, take in consideration that art market codes are different from "hardcore" collecting or Japanese established codes and that lots of people do forget this crucial aspect. There are documents that are able to work on multiple markets, some only for harcore collectors, some only for art market, some for none. There are people that do appreaciate rough, and some that do appreciate cleanup, and as wrote previously there are documents that may fit or not one or more of those markets. Most important fact to have in mind is that for insurance company, only art market prevails.

Then, depending on the art you are willing to buy or sale, you have to focus on the source and destination markets completed by reference auctions.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by JWR »

theultimatebrucelee wrote:I think...with my drawing skill I can replica some of those sketches but make them look nicer lol

I was wondering, does anyone know if there is a general art market value comparison with this kind of rough sketches compared to its counterpart Genga and Douga, assuming they exist...like how much more or less preferred and valuable etc.
I guess it comes down to what actual artwork makes it's way to the market. There have been many shows I collect that one is lucky to get anything from until years later some better stuff finds it's way out. Show's like AMG TV , Karen, Shakugan no Shana very few Genga & Douga's have surfaced so the roughs command a higher price then they might if the others were avalible.

In a lot of cases though, maybe because of my comic art background I find the rough sketches to be much more interesting and for me collectable. I guess since they are the 1st strokes of the creation process, the setting of the scene and the image of the character all hand drawn by an artist appeals to me. Starting with a "blank canvas" and putting the image from his imagination to life.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by sensei »

JWR wrote:I guess it comes down to what actual artwork makes it's way to the market. There have been many shows I collect that one is lucky to get anything from until years later some better stuff finds it's way out. Show's like AMG TV , Karen, Shakugan no Shana very few Genga & Douga's have surfaced so the roughs command a higher price then they might if the others were avalible.
Hear hear to this: Princess Tutu is another series for which very little art was released, so every sketch that emerges is all the more precious. Tsubasa Chronicle is another.

I have quite a chunk of Powerpuff Girls Z art, nearly all of it roughs, but that's because a quantity appeared just as the series was being produced. (I think I got some sketches before the show they went with actually aired.) Since then the supply has dried up completely, so I'm glad I nabbed some when it was relatively plentiful.
In a lot of cases though, maybe because of my comic art background I find the rough sketches to be much more interesting and for me collectable. I guess since they are the 1st strokes of the creation process, the setting of the scene and the image of the character all hand drawn by an artist appeals to me. Starting with a "blank canvas" and putting the image from his imagination to life.
Again I have to agree. It always intrigues me to see the false starts and alternative thoughts that are there in the roughs, and watch them reconsidered and polished into the production image. But it's also true that a collector who wants to own the final version will prefer the douga over the rough. Or even a rilezu, even though this is an expensive fan cel painted from the original douga. I was amused to see Rozen Maiden gengas come onto the market after Office F&O finished their series of rilezu and go for a fraction of the price that the repro cel commanded.

So it's hard to tell. If one person watching the auction wants it, it will go cheap. If two people want it, it will go higher. Maybe a lot higher.
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Re: Mandarake Eveyday Auction's authenticity

Post by theultimatebrucelee »

iceman57 wrote:whatever the artwork is, take in consideration that art market codes are different from "hardcore" collecting or Japanese established codes and that lots of people do forget this crucial aspect. There are documents that are able to work on multiple markets, some only for harcore collectors, some only for art market, some for none. There are people that do appreaciate rough, and some that do appreciate cleanup, and as wrote previously there are documents that may fit or not one or more of those markets. Most important fact to have in mind is that for insurance company, only art market prevails.
sensei wrote:So it's hard to tell. If one person watching the auction wants it, it will go cheap. If two people want it, it will go higher. Maybe a lot higher.
JWR wrote:I guess it comes down to what actual artwork makes it's way to the market. There have been many shows I collect that one is lucky to get anything from until years later some better stuff finds it's way out. Show's like AMG TV , Karen, Shakugan no Shana very few Genga & Douga's have surfaced so the roughs command a higher price then they might if the others were avalible.
very true, I dislike the competition but even more, supply limit on this hobby(not the one of a kind factor but rather there isn't enough stock available for everyone who want them at one period of time). if not for that perhaps the man-made inflation won't be as bad. then also speaking for myself, as a collector I can be greedy which sometimes would result in a lose-lose situation for buyers, assuming other buyers care about what they spent and how much can be gotten back.
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