Mandarake

Auctions on MSN and Mandarake
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kathpatty
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Mandarake

Post by kathpatty »

Sailor moon craziness....... 8O
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Drac of the Sharp Smiles
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Re: Mandarake

Post by Drac of the Sharp Smiles »

But those still say "For Exhibition Cel".... Which I can't remember what we found out that means. Time to use the search feature on the forum, since there's one I like up there. ^_^
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Nehelenia
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Re: Mandarake

Post by Nehelenia »

The funny thing is that the one who painted these started adding sequence number too. Fortunately there are still ways to make sure you will not buy any of these fake cels but still, it's irritating. Imagine the ones who will buy these from mandarake. Fortunately mandarake says "for exhibition cel" but the 2nd buyer? The 3rd? .... Too many fake cels on the market....
The funniest thing about this is 1 "cel" i came across yesterday. The Uranus-Neptune "cel" for exhibition is a fake. So far so good. There is no such sequence number on the scene as A7 and this type of movement never exists in the episode. The funniest thing about this is that i remembered i saw this cel on its original form somewhere along with its background. So i checked my net files and i found it. I was so surprised to see the exact cel with he exact unique hand made background on sequence A5 with bold marker. As i examined it a bit more so i can tell when i find an original cel and a fake one, i realized this movement never appears on anime.
SO BOTH "for exhibition" and "original" are BOTH FAKE!!!!!! Fortunately after this, i checked all of my cels 1 by 1, and none of them are copy.
But still....... Those "so called cels" ..... they ruin our hobby...
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Jadeduo
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Re: Mandarake

Post by Jadeduo »

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I've asked Mandarake about these pieces and they insist they were produced by the studio just not used in production. Mandarake is not some fly by night operation like say if they had shown up on YJ I would be a lot more skeptical.

Another thing I would like to point out is that the line fading on some of the pieces are crazy horrendous. Line fading is almost impossible to fake unless you leave it out in the sun and use the exact same source materials to produce something that looks so much like typical sailor moon line fading.

Another thing to point out is that it is well documented that if you scan the original douga with a photo copier onto the acetate it will NEVER produce the exact same image twice. It will be damn close and will look exceptional and Toei has been known to produce cels for their museum so the originals do not get damaged.

I also own one of these... What I would like to point out is that fake cels by feel are very easy to point out, especially when you have over 50 sailor moon cels! Just comparing it side by side with what I have is very comparable. The paint oxidation on the lines, the line fading, the feel of the acetate is not new.

Make your own judgement and email Mandarake they might have more provenance on these than anyone else does!

Have fun!
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Nehelenia
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Re: Mandarake

Post by Nehelenia »

The point is they have never been used in the production and even though mandarake points this out, the next seller to sell them won't point this out.
Foe me cels are only worth when they are actually used in the anime, and before the so called "cel" gets on your hands, it's very difficult to know if it's been used or not.
let's pray after mandarake sells these, we won't see anyone else resell them without the notes...
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Jadeduo
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Re: Mandarake

Post by Jadeduo »

I think the designation that only items used in production is slightly narrow-minded... There are so many pieces that are not used in the end anime and that will limit you down the line. Things like test cels, layouts (which are changed all the damn time!), rilezus, genga, douga, concept art, storyboards, little sketches that are sometimes drawn on things like settei and scrap douga paper. Reproductions which also have their place.

Yes I think that if someone goes to sell these they should document, but that does not make them worthless, nor does it ruin an entire hobby. There are a lot if dishonest people in the world, but this should not stop us from at least educating everyone and each other in the community, and keeping an open and nonjudgmental space for everyone to discuss issues like this.

I guess I just expect the best of everyone in this hobby, and maybe I over document, my gallery in no way hides the condition and provenance of the pieces I own and I do my very best by updating scans every few years, and trying to be as helpful as possible to anyone who has ever purchased a cel from although it has been a long time since I have sold one of my babies.

Another thing, I know things can be super competitive amongst people who collect from the same series but I think we all troll the same auction sites so everyone knows what's up basically... So if something seems hinky bring it up! It's great to have such lively discussions!

Happy Hunting!
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sensei
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Re: Mandarake

Post by sensei »

While on the whole I agree with Jadeduo, there's still that element of fetishism involved in animation art collecting. That's what (in my mind) distinguishes a production cel, with its dings, oxidation, and line fading, from an arguably more attractive repro cel, and more so from a sericel or (ick!) a giclee cel. However homely, it is "the one" that had its moment under the camera and whose image flickers past when I watch that episode.

It's the difference between a nice Louisville Slugger bat with a repro signature of David Ortiz on it and "the bat" used by Ortiz in hitting one of his home runs during the 2013 World Series. Or a nicely printed modern copy of Hawthorne's House of Seven Gables and "the one" that Hawthorne gave his wife, with a loving note on the title page. (I actually held that in my hand for a few minutes when I was working on the standard edition of his letters, one of which had been pasted into the copy by a later owner.)

It's why I do not make a thing of collecting rilezu for CGI series, even though I can see that they are much more vibrant and displayable than the sketches from which they were made. But the sketches were part of the production process that produced the show, and they had their moments in the sun. The rilezu (dang my fetishistic collector's soul) are just pretty repro cels, while the sketches are "the" art.

I agree that these cels, even if they are official studio art, are likely to confuse collectors down the road. Hopefully some professional-minded SM collector is glomming copies of these items off the auction site and saving them with the provenance info that will help these future collectors make wise decisions.
Image
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Drac of the Sharp Smiles
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Re: Mandarake

Post by Drac of the Sharp Smiles »

sensei wrote:However homely, it is "the one" that had its moment under the camera and whose image flickers past when I watch that episode.
This is really the crux of it when it comes to cels.... Now, that said, I *DO* have both studio repro cels AND a handful of Rilezu cels in my collection. Though it's interesting to note the only trend among all them is that they all come from series which HAVE NO CELS. (Saiyuki, Chrono Crusade, and King of Bandits Jing.) I'm not sure exactly how I feel about repro cels for series that are made with cels. Which I kind of have to decide.... It would be nice to have a complete record of which images were recreated, but none made by any group of collectors could ever be complete. (No one group could ever have enough information.)

(Edit: I thought it worth editing here that I do realize Saiyuki, at least the original TV series, has a handful of true production cels, specifically: harmony cels. Relatively speaking, though, it's so small a number of them as makes no odds. Thus, I feel the "has no cels" assessment still applies, although not 100% accurate.)

However, exactly as Jadeduo said, the genga of which I've become fond never actually appeared under the camera (scanner? LOL) either, but it's interesting to note the "of which I've become fond" part of that. It took a relatively long time for me to warm to the idea of sketches and, for series that are cel-made, I still generally buy sketches only when accompanied by the cel... very very rarely on their own. And even to this day, I remain far more forgiving of incompleteness in cels than in sketch sets.

For me, the jury is still out....
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GuyvarIII
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Re: Mandarake

Post by GuyvarIII »

Pre-production, production, and post-production art-- of course certain pieces are rarer, harder to find, or cost more to obtain. Despite some cases of total, or near total unavailability of artwork from a given work, I believe those factors are mostly controlled by the end product’s (TV show, movie, comic, etc.) popularity (or possibly a specific character’s popularity).

However, it is my belief that collectors are not just buying some undefined sketch or painting from some popular product. They’re buying the image(s) depicted on the paper or plastic. As such, I feel the more aesthetically pleasing or impactful the image, the better the item, irrespective of whether it’s pre-production, production, or post-production artwork. That said, the frisson of having something that appeared in the show (production cel), or having something drawn by a known artist/animator (preliminary and cleanup sketches) could conceivably add to the collectability, or possibly the value, of the item, depending on the collector. But, advertising art (hanken, etc.) made to promote a show, and whose image, unlike a Rilezu, is never seen in the actual show, is highly collectable and desirable, largely because, almost by definition, it is a great image.

In this case, I wouldn’t say that these Mandarake Sailor Moon cels are inherently bad. But, I would want to know, and have some definitive way to recognize these cels as exhibition cels.

Image
GENGA

Image
PRODUCTION CEL

Image
RILEZU

Image
HANKEN

Which is more worthy of collecting? :shrug
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Nehelenia
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Re: Mandarake

Post by Nehelenia »

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANIME-PRODUCTIO ... 0988190341
See what i mean? No douga, copy background. With clips and says sailor moon production cel. Is this "for exhibition" cel or production cel?
It's from episode 128 also, just like the other "for exhibition cels". And it makes you wonder..... Mandarake is playing fair (as always), but what with those who buy them from Mandarake and resell them? I just think it's dangerous, that's all. And that from now on I will have to be even more careful then before :/

P.S. Once again I want to say that I think every collector has his/her own reason of collection cels and that's why some times we see the value of a piece differently. And as I said for me, not claiming this is the general belief, a cel has more value if it's used in the creation of my favourite series. For me the reasons of collecting are sentimental for someone else might not be this way.
-I think their specification is fake. It was a little too much and I guess that's why you are all so upset, but this account is used by both me and my husband, and he can be a bit overeacting sometimes :P
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Nehelenia
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Re: Mandarake

Post by Nehelenia »

I was right by the way. Mandarake sold this "for exhibition cel" http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auc_e/item ... 8660100001
Now ebay sells this http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANIME-PRODUCTIO ... 2ecbd46685
They sell this on ebay AS ANIME PRODUCTION ITEM RARE SAILOR MOON TUXEDO MASK & TIGER'S EYE ANIMATION CEL.
That's why i don't like exhibition cels. mandarake may tell you they are this kind, but 9/10 who buy cels from mandarake buy them to resell them and make money...
It's a pity ;/
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Re: Mandarake

Post by RePete »

Nehelenia wrote:I was right by the way. Mandarake sold this "for exhibition cel" http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auc_e/item ... 8660100001
Now ebay sells this http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANIME-PRODUCTIO ... 2ecbd46685
They sell this on ebay AS ANIME PRODUCTION ITEM RARE SAILOR MOON TUXEDO MASK & TIGER'S EYE ANIMATION CEL.
That's why i don't like exhibition cels. mandarake may tell you they are this kind, but 9/10 who buy cels from mandarake buy them to resell them and make money...
It's a pity ;/
Had a look at this guys other auctions.

Look at this: http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auc_e/item ... 8870100013 and then http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANIME-PRODUCTIO ... 2ecbb9a166

And with this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANIME-PRODUCTIO ... 4935796%26 I remember seeing this on mandarake like a month or two back for a fraction of the price. Looks like most of his auctions were purchased from mandarake, put straight to ebay for twice to price.

Doesn't look to be in it for the collector side of a things, a genuine scalper.
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teggacat
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Re: Mandarake

Post by teggacat »

all very intersting ideas but whoever holds the cel can do whatever they please with it,
its not right nor is it wrong its just called fair market. Just because someone asks said
price for a cel does not mean anything unless someone is willing to open their wallet.
As far as the "exhibition cels", thats a little different, and should be re-sold as such.
But not everyone is on the level, its just the way the world works.
Let the Buyer Beware.
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sensei
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Re: Mandarake

Post by sensei »

And this is why this forum labors on, despite the shortage of cels and the overall decline of enthusiasm over the no-longer-new-thing anime. For those who commit to collecting, it really is essential to have some user-friendly place where info like this can be circulated and newcomers duly warned.
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Re: Mandarake

Post by theultimatebrucelee »

Had a look at this guys other auctions.

Look at this: http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auc_e/item ... 8870100013 and then http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANIME-PRODUCTIO ... 2ecbb9a166

And with this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANIME-PRODUCTIO ... 4935796%26 I remember seeing this on mandarake like a month or two back for a fraction of the price. Looks like most of his auctions were purchased from mandarake, put straight to ebay for twice to price.

Doesn't look to be in it for the collector side of a things, a genuine scalper.
There seems to be at least a few ebay sellers using mandarake as their supplier. I ran across this the other day:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MONONOKE-HIME-A ... 2978305%26

https://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/neo-bid/e ... 06323&c=15

slap on a random background and all of a sudden the price triples.
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