Major problems coming for scanlation sites

[JWR]

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-t ... tions.html

[Sky Rat]

Argh, that's aggravating! I only read scanlatations of things that are not available in English, and haven't even been promised a license so probably never will be available in English.

Manga sales have been down for 2 years? Of course they are. We're in a recession! Sales for everything have been down for 2 years! Scantalation sites have been around for ages longer than that. Yargh.

[Keropi]

Yeah, the popularity of those application programs to read them didn't help matters any. They only brought more attention to them.

Ah well. It happens.

[Penguinton]

Well that's annoying.

I don't like reading things on the computer screen so I always buy it from the stores anyway. I kinda feel sorry for the people who try out manga before they buy them.

[kathpatty]

Nooooooooooo

[iceman57]

Ha ha yummy lever effect of crisis. Companies that were laxist in the past now try to save the little money they can.

Who's next, Youtube ?...

[Sky Rat]

I don't like reading things on the computer screen so I always buy it from the stores anyway.

Me either, I actually hate reading on the computer and would much perfer to buy copies (I do of anything available to buy.)

BUT. My taste in manga doesn't seem to be what's very popular. The stuff I'm most inerested in reaing isn't getting translated enough. I really don't have a choice but o read scantalations for much of it. Sigh.

[cutiebunny]

The US manga distributors might want to try talking to their US anime distributor contributors first before they start targeting scanlation sites.

Because, even though 'legal' sites like Crunchyroll have been around for over a year, 'legal' anime clearly is not working. The majority of anime fans are still in school and do not have a job. Asking them to pay money to watch anime is not going to work. Asking them to wait a week to watch the anime on a legal site when, without much effort, anyone can access it off another site, with decent subs, in less than 72 hours after initial release is also not going to work.

Look at TV programs in the US. Within 24 hours of any show being aired, I can either head to the website of the station that aired it, or go to some other 'legal' site and watch the show, within maybe a few commercials, for free. That's because US companies realize that, if they don't do this, people will create sites that feature these shows. Then the revenue that the 3 ads/episode generate will go to these websites and not the parent company of these programs.

The legal fees involved in pursuing scanlation/fansub sites is astronomically high. And, should a company actually succeed in shutting down one site, another site will reappear shortly. It's been happening for the past several years.

If anime and manga companies were smart, they would contract with fansubbers/scanners, pay them a fee per installment(with possible bonus for companies that can provide accurate translations under 72 hours) and then host it on a site with a small amount of ads. This way, the company receives their fee and viewers don't have to pay for it.

So, no, I'm not worried that these scanlation sites will go away any time soon. Until a free, quality site has been completed, no matter how much these companies fight it, there will always be someone ready to open a site with the material that people want.

[Drac of the Sharp Smiles]

It sounds to me like all that's happening is that the scanlators stopped policing themselves and, since they won't, the companies now can't ignore them any longer. Offering scans of things available in the US or charging/receiving money are big changes from when scanlations were "no problem". And because the companies have finally been forced to step in, EVERYTHING is going to get caught up in this, both the US-licenced stuff that they ABSOLUTELY shouldn't have been offering and the more "grey zone" unlicenced things to which the publishing companies would most likely have continued to turn a blind eye, if that's all the scanlators were making available.

The bottom line is that, despite whatever our tendancies are in our own group, there ARE a LOT of people out there who see no reason to buy manga or anime when they can download it for free. There are MANY feelings of entitlement in the anime/manga community as a whole.... By which I mean the people who sit back and download things for free on the basis of that ridiculous argument: "I can't afford to buy it, so the original company releasing it isn't losing anything if I download it because I wouldn't have bought it anyway." NO. All that means is that you are STEALING.... because if you could NOT download it for free, you would be FINDING a way to buy it. However, now you're not going to bother finding a way to buy it.... you'll instead go legitimately buy the entertainment items you want that you CAN'T steal.

Everyone here (who is old enough) can do nothing but admit that things are MUCH MUCH different than when fansubs/scanlations started out. The fans doing these things USED TO do a lot more to police themselves (most notably PULLING things that were licenced) and make sure that no one really had a reason to bother coming in and get involved. But the bottom line now is that I know places I can illegally download pretty much any anime or manga I want that are licenced and available in the US and, more to the problem, these downloads are presented in a format professional enough to compete with the companies releasing the titles legally. The fansubbers and scanlators are no longer dealing with just making something available that would otherwise be unavailable. They are catering to people who want their downloaded anime and manga in a sharp, professional, polished form that they can keep BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO INTENTION AT ALL TO BUY A COPY.

While I completely agree that spending on everything has been down while money is tight, this is not the publishing companies just being mean. This kind of litigation is the result of the fan community not appropriately policing themselves.

Personally, after seeing this, my only hope is that the digisubbers sit up and take notice and change some of THEIR ways. Of course, it may be too late. Now that the scanlators have crossed the line into "legally actionable", the result of dealing with them is going to become precident for going after the digisubbers too.


And cutiebunny.... I love you, but...

"The majority of anime fans are still in school and do not have a job. Asking them to pay money to watch anime is not going to work. Asking them to wait a week to watch the anime on a legal site when, without much effort, anyone can access it off another site, with decent subs, in less than 72 hours after initial release is also not going to work."

THIS is the kind of crapass argument that is killing anime/manga. Note that you say "when they can get it from another site".... THIS is why they're trying to kill those "another sites". With the "another sites" gone, people HAVE TO wait and CAN'T just steal what they want, so chances go up that they will buy it legally.

[zerospace]

Drac, you have no idea how much it made me smile to read your post. You give me hope that there are still people in this community who don't believe in stealing or that they are entitled to their anime/manga for free.

[cutiebunny]

And cutiebunny.... I love you, but...

"The majority of anime fans are still in school and do not have a job. Asking them to pay money to watch anime is not going to work. Asking them to wait a week to watch the anime on a legal site when, without much effort, anyone can access it off another site, with decent subs, in less than 72 hours after initial release is also not going to work."

THIS is the kind of crapass argument that is killing anime/manga. Note that you say "when they can get it from another site".... THIS is why they're trying to kill those "another sites". With the "another sites" gone, people HAVE TO wait and CAN'T just steal what they want, so chances go up that they will buy it legally.

It's not a 'crapass' argument. It's reality.

Let me ask you this - the 1+ year that Crunchyroll has been around, how many websites are still around that feature roughly the same content? I can name about 10 off the top of my head. All of these have been around for a handful of years. Where are the injunctions against these websites? Where are the 'cease and desist' letters? They're nowhere because all these things cost money. Lots of it. And this is not what the industry has right now. Nor will they 'project' ahead and crunch numbers to see how much revenue they'll generate. That's not how business works. The 'right now' savings mean more than 'future' revenue.

The same thing with manga. In fact, the only people that are going to be on the winning end of this issue are the lawyers.

By the way, if the manga companies succeed in getting all manga removed from the internet, then they need to also remove all manga from public libraries. Because, by people reading it and not paying for it, that's also a form of theft. It doesn't matter if someone initially bought that manga because someone initially bought the scanlation manga too. It's all theft, and if it's all going to be black/white, then, let's go the extreme and eliminate all of it.

See how stupid this sounds.

Here's another idea - if the US manga companies want me to buy their product, start giving me some of the stuff the Japanese get. In Japan, I can buy a 400 page monthly issue of Nakayoshi for about $5. Not only does it come with monthly installments of whatever manga Nakayoshi has currently licensed, I also get really nifty furoku items like pencil cases, erasers, glitter pens, make-up and other chintz that I'll probably never use(but could!). Plus, I also have the chance to win a big prize, like a bottom-of-the-line Ipod or maybe a really nice shikishii from my favorite artist. Hell - just offer me the chance to win shikishii and/or original manga pages. I'd cough up $5 an issue for that.

In short, I can see what happened to the anime industry happening to the manga industry. The US industry will rattle around, spend $$$ and take down one distributor site. Then, after looking at how much they spent, they'll look back at it, maybe do a google search, multiple it by how many sites, and realize how much they'll have to pay to wipe out all current sites.

But, until anime makes a larger proportion of the entertainment industry in the US, employing procedures that the music industry used to eradicate music piracy will not work. That, and, IMO, music and anime episodes/manga are apples and oranges. I can listen to music anywhere. I can't watch episodes/manga everywhere.

At least, not until I get my Cadillac Escalade with the 4 TVs, including one by the driver seat so I can watch TV while driving.

[zerospace]

By law, you must have permission from the creator/owner of copyrighted material in order to distribute it. Libraries have such permission, where these manga sites do not. So, public libraries lending out manga is not a form of theft at all, but a manga site with no permission to distribute the materials is indeed helping people to steal.

http://www.librarycopyrightalliance.org/

[cutiebunny]

By law, you must have permission from the creator/owner of copyrighted material in order to distribute it. Libraries have such permission, where these manga sites do not. So, public libraries lending out manga is not a form of theft at all, but a manga site with no permission to distribute the materials is indeed helping people to steal.

http://www.librarycopyrightalliance.org/

But the point is, the end result is still the same. I can go online and read chapter one, I can go to a library and read chapter one or I can head to a bookstore like Borders and read chapter one. Unless I decided to buy it, I not only acquired the good(reading chapter one & the info contained within) but I also did not pay for the good.

Economically speaking, the end result is that I got the good and that the US distributor did not receive any money from me in order to obtain the good. The US distributor is no better off by either possibility.

[iceman57]

Wowhoooow seems I missed a lot of interesting replies

The stuff I'm most inerested in reaing isn't getting translated enough.

Hell yes, tons of Tezuka Osamua stuff never been translated...

Because, even though 'legal' sites like Crunchyroll have been around for over a year, 'legal' anime clearly is not working. The majority of anime fans are still in school and do not have a job. Asking them to pay money to watch anime is not going to work. Asking them to wait a week to watch the anime on a legal site when, without much effort, anyone can access it off another site, with decent subs, in less than 72 hours after initial release is also not going to work.

The majority owns a mobile phone where invoices are paid each time, this is not a matter of money issue as there is money but of transfert.
Fact is that the offer of media is definitively larger than two decades ago and is that any internet user consider that accessing free property does not reduce is budget while infringing rules.
As you notice the demographic main target does not have a job and is in a teenager life, with the rebellion against the system.
The answer from French companies is so called "simulcast" with an official subbed broadcast within 24 hours.

The legal fees involved in pursuing scanlation/fansub sites is astronomically high. And, should a company actually succeed in shutting down one site, another site will reappear shortly. It's been happening for the past several years.

Cost of a lawsuit is high, but an easy answer is DNS removal and domain closing through the "abusive" terms of use.
I had once to handle a lawsuit against the FOTNS fan site I'm in charge of PR. When you explicite to the right owner that you run a site without volonteer damage or profit, affecting a partial range of art, they accept off court negociation.
When you notice that a website is volonteerly sharing tons of wide range illegal content but that the owner gets the adds fees, then they have no mercy.
Severe penalties may easily put down rebirth sites, what studio need to do is a penal court with humans and not only non physical suits, this may calm down a lot of people.

They are catering to people who want their downloaded anime and manga in a sharp, professional, polished form that they can keep BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO INTENTION AT ALL TO BUY A COPY.

One word : counterfeit.
I just finished to study demographics and anime illegal download, there's a generational inflexion point between previous generation attached to "physical and sensitive" content (VHS, CD, DVD...) and new generation attached to virtualised support.
Studios and righs owner have to lawsuit now and not in 10 years if they want to keep an hand on the market.

]By the way, if the manga companies succeed in getting all manga removed from the internet, then they need to also remove all manga from public libraries. Because, by people reading it and not paying for it, that's also a form of theft. It doesn't matter if someone initially bought that manga because someone initially bought the scanlation manga too. It's all theft, and if it's all going to be black/white, then, let's go the extreme and eliminate all of it.

Not really, for cultural purposes, licencing is way lower than for business purposal (even fees free in some cases).
__________________

Well, here is my overview in two lines:
Manga and anime are a community work of authors, editors, distributors. By encouraging fakes and non licenced material, you damage the creativity of authors and are not respectful of the anime industry especially while collecting/preserving a part of the anime history.
___________________

BONUS :

And cutiebunny.... I love you

Gotcha ! Throwing rice...

http://www.destination360.com/caribbean ... edding.jpg

[zerospace]

By law, you must have permission from the creator/owner of copyrighted material in order to distribute it. Libraries have such permission, where these manga sites do not. So, public libraries lending out manga is not a form of theft at all, but a manga site with no permission to distribute the materials is indeed helping people to steal.

http://www.librarycopyrightalliance.org/

But the point is, the end result is still the same. I can go online and read chapter one, I can go to a library and read chapter one or I can head to a bookstore like Borders and read chapter one. Unless I decided to buy it, I not only acquired the good(reading chapter one & the info contained within) but I also did not pay for the good.

Economically speaking, the end result is that I got the good and that the US distributor did not receive any money from me in order to obtain the good. The US distributor is no better off by either possibility.

So, you're saying the ends justify the means? I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that. Stealing, no matter what the reason, is wrong, IMO.