Major problems coming for scanlation sites

All the Anime that's fit to print.....in serialized novels
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Gonzai
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Post by Gonzai »

Where did this sense of entitlement come from, anyways?
Well, I have always felt that way about pretty much everything,
but that is totally beside the point. :P

Again, I buy the manga. I have tons of it, most of which has
never been looked at. The reason being, I have read all
the online updates simply because I am too impatient to wait
for the volumes to come out. :roll:

I don't know why others read online scans, nor do I really give
a rats ass. All I know is if they take this away, it will probably
make me lose interest in many of the manga's I read, simply
because I will find something else to keep me entertained. :shrug

Anyone know where I can find a lifesize doll of Tsuruga Ren?? :dlook
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Post by Angelic-Lair »

Regarding entitlement...
To put it simply: once someone, somewhere has had a taste of something better (or cheaper), everyone else decides they want it, too. That's all there is to it.
To use Iceman's example of collectors not paying duties: this happens everywhere that duties are collected, on everything that duties are collected on.
Why? Because the U.S. government doesn't collect duties.
Everyone else around the world is peeved that they have to pay duties (and VAT in Europe).
It's all about equality on a global scale... in our opinion. ^__^
Last edited by Angelic-Lair on Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jcaliff »

zerospace wrote:OK! Most of A-B vs me. Sounds like fun! 8) Anyone else care to weigh in before I continue?
For what it's worth, I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you, but *pulls out cane and shoos kids off the lawn* there are a lot of spoiled kids (and adults, unfortunately) with entitlement issues in anime and manga fandom these days. Back in the day when I first got involved in anime/manga fandom (around 1990), most of us dreamed of the day when things would be available commercially in the US. All we had were craptastic photocopies, and for video, nth generation vhs - a professional release meant clear images and better translations. Even though manga was generally flipped and released as b&w US-format comic books (Mai the Psychic Girl, Area 88 ), it was wonderful. Getting manga in original Japanese was difficult and sporadic. I had a friend who would translate chapters of Dragon Ball, City Hunter, and Kanata Kara and make photocopies for her friends. Later on, when things were released professionally, fan translations of that title ended. We've come a long way from that. Though, from what I've seen, even with advances in digitial copies and technology the fan translations of popular stuff suck so much that you're still generally better off with professionally translated stuff, at least for mainstream stuff.

And for what it's worth, when I was 12, I was watching TV (and not cable, we couldn't afford it) and checking out books from the library. I didn't go out and sit in bookstores reading (back then they would have been pissed off if I even tried that). We also didn't have the internet, so nothing internet-related was an option. And I didn't spend money I didn't have.
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Loved them more than shining diamonds, loved them more than glistenin' gold.
Hector called to all the people,"Come and share my treasure trunk!"
And all the silly sightless people came and looked...and called it junk.
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Post by JWR »

Gonzai wrote:
Anyone know where I can find a lifesize doll of Tsuruga Ren?? :dlook
http://luva45162.pixnet.net/blog/post/23841836
"Like the wind crying endlessly through the universe, Time carries away the names and the deeds of conquerors and commoners alike. And all that we are, all that remains, is in the memories of those who cared we came this way for a brief moment." Harlan Ellison
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Post by cutiebunny »

zerospace wrote:CB: Your argument would make sense to me if we were talking about something that is absolutely necessary to say... sustain life. But, honestly -- when did we determine that a poor college student has the right to read manga? Heck, by that rationale, I'd love to have a closet filled with nothing but designer clothing! So, because I want it, does that mean I should get it for free? I'm of the opinion that if you can't afford it, you don't get to have it. Where did this sense of entitlement come from, anyways?
MANGA IS LIFE :P

We can only blame ourselves for the creation of the belief in 'self-entitlement'. That's because we created a society where almost anything can be had and without much effort. We give people who haven't even contributed a dime to social security a free $500 every month. The Supreme Court decided that no child can be denied access to a public education irregardless of immigration status. And now, we're having universal healthcare - so, despite never having paid taxes in your life, you can get your yearly check-up.

When you're raised in a society where almost everything can be had at little or no cost, it's only natural to think that everything should be free. We have people, not only in the US, but around the world, who believe that free, uncensored access to the internet is an inalienable human right. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it's brought up before the UN to be incorporated in their list soon.

And let's not forget TV networks who, with shows like "My Sweet 16", show impressionable people that every 16 year old girl is ENTITLED to have a white horse drawn carriage because that's what every princess has.

That's why I can't judge people who do things like this because, considering what we've given people and enabled people to do in first world countries, it's only natural that they'd start to expect this. The concept of paying for something, like an encyclopedia, when you can cite Wikipedia as a credible source for a term paper, is outdated.

You mention designer clothing in your argument is valid, but, it's not a fair comparison. I can't wear manga scanlations nor can I download clothes online. But something like an encyclopedia is. Remember back in the 1980s when Encyclopedia Britannica would advertise their big ol' 26 volume set and owning that was quissential to "having arrived"? Where's the EB ads now? They're gone - simply because things like Wikipedia, although not always accurate, have replaced them because they're easily accessible & free.

This, I believe, is the future of knowledge, music, art, etc. While tangible versions will always be covetted, either by collectors, museums, etc., all these media are slowly digitizing and becoming availble to everyone with internet access at sometimes to little or no cost.

I think that the manga/anime industry is going to have to bite the bullet and realize that it's a lost cause. Instead of trying to fight it, why not use the funds that would have been given to the lawyers to overmarket it? Allow Cartoon Network to show it for free and, if people like it, they'll demand the product tie-ins. And when they do, make sure that you have those boxes of sugary cardboard cereal filled with Naruto toys.
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Post by dude_moose »

I may have gotten a little off topic, but::

Honestly, I'm not sure how many JAPANESE pay for weekly releases of manga. It's common practice for many in Japan to read weekly releases like Shonen Jump in convenience stores. These people probably never pay for their manga either, or who don't buy it until it is serialized into volumes. I feel like this isn't much different than reading scanlations online. It's simply the only version available to us as consumers who expect access as soon as something is released.

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(convenience store in Kyoto, Japan, 9/08 )

Maybe publishing companies should have online subscription services. I'd probably pay a small fee every month to have access to official high quality scans (translated or not..). If I had had no choice but to pay for serialized manga, I probably wouldn't end up reading much at all (except for ones that I get at the library or something). In my opinion, it's better to have readers who are not willing to pay be able to consume the product than just plain BLOCK them out, because, chances are, they will inspire others to become paying customers. Eg) I never payed for Naruto episodes in high school, but because I distributed them among my friends on cd, a couple of them ended up buying naruto video games, manga, and otherwise supporting the franchise. Also, though I may not pay for all of the anime/manga I consume, that doesn't mean that I don't pay for any of it. A lot of consumers who do not pay for manga/anime DO spend money on video games, movies, art books, figurines, and other merchandise.

The second-hand manga market in Japan is also sizable. There are store where you can buy like-new manga for like ~300yen (as opposed to 400-600yen), or even less if they have many copies. One store, Book-Off, sells some of its used manga at 105yen per volume, and in sets for half this price. I bought like 12 or 14 volumes of X/1999 for 600/700yen, where they would have cost me upwards of 4800/5600 new. Sure, that price was paid for those books at one point, but the manga publishers are still missing out because I decided to buy them used rather than new.

Companies really need to discover new ways of distributing their media. I understand their plight, but shutting down scanlation sites as they pop up is probably not going to change much... especially when they face other problems with distribution even in Japan (convenience store readers/used book stores). They need to incentivize purchase. Maybe they should try setting up something like Steam, with non-transferrable, digital copies, with some subscription-only benefits. I would be willing to pay for something like this... probably on a series-by-series basis though, as right now I only read Naruto...
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Post by misa »

Amen to most of what people have said in this thread (especially zero and jcaliff ^_^).

I have a ton of real manga; everything I read online past 1 chapter that I enjoy, and is licensed in the US, I buy. Yes, it's expensive -- so I try to be good. I also have a wholesale license which helps ^^; I'm just happy to have so many series I love finally translated in English and "non-flipped".

However, I am guilty of going to OneManga every week/month to read my current favs (Naruto, Bleach, Full Metal Alchemist, xxxHolic). Honestly, if Viz/TokyoPop/etc. could work with iTunes or the Android store to sell high-quality "chapters" each week that were in-sync with the Japanese releases... I would be more than happy to plunk down $.50 - $.99 cents a chapter.

I do think a huge part of the current problem isn't just that people want it FREE, but that they want it NOW. I know I'm guilty of the "Now" bit.
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Post by Sky Rat »

dude_moose wrote:I may have gotten a little off topic, but::

Honestly, I'm not sure how many JAPANESE pay for weekly releases of manga. It's common practice for many in Japan to read weekly releases like Shonen Jump in convenience stores. These people probably never pay for their manga either, or who don't buy it until it is serialized into volumes. I feel like this isn't much different than reading scanlations online. It's simply the only version available to us as consumers who expect access as soon as something is released.
I don't think that picture is an accurate representation of Japan. I have been to MANY Japanese convinience stores. That is seriously not a typical scene. Manga in Japanese bookstores comes shirk wrapped. It is impossible to read in the store 90% of the time.
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Post by Drac of the Sharp Smiles »

"While tangible versions will always be covetted, either by collectors, museums, etc., all these media are slowly digitizing and becoming availble to everyone with internet access at sometimes to little or no cost."

The fact that YOU are getting it at little to no cost does NOT equate to it costing little to nothing to CREATE. The majority of the cost of creating a book of any kind is NOT in the paper and ink used to print it. (Most people assign FAR too much value to the paper/ink -- go read some of the arguements about digital book downloads for the Kindle, etc, if you don't believe me.) Paper/ink is one of the tiniest costs in the whole process. The majority of the cost is paying the artist, the writer, the editor, the publicist, etc, etc, etc...

BTW, Cutiebunny, I could not utterly and totally disagree with you more about kids in the US not having spending money. Kids have more spending power in this country than almost anywhere else in the world. Even if that weren't the case, I still hold by the same words Zerospace used: "I'm of the opinion that if you can't afford it, you don't get to have it." IMHO, that goes for EVERYTHING that is optional in life. If you WORK for it, you can have it. There's no reason a kid can't flip burgers to make some cash if mom and dad aren't handing any out -- they just DON'T WANNA. Boo-hoo.

Frankly, I pay for my anime and manga because I want to see more of it. I'm not going to see more if the person writing it can't put a meal on their table because I'm stealing the item they created to sell. You can shake their hand and say "GOOD JOB! AWESOME BOOK!" but when you don't PAY them for the book, do you think they can walk up to their landlord, shake his hand and say "GOOD JOB! AWESOME APARTMENT!" instead of paying rent?

"I do think a huge part of the current problem isn't just that people want it FREE, but that they want it NOW. I know I'm guilty of the "Now" bit."

I'm sure there's some out there that fall into this catagory... but I think those people are very far outnumbered by the "I want it free" group. Not to mention I would guess that a larger percentage of the "I want it now" group probably buys the item later when it is finally available. The "I want it free" group never intends to BUY at all.

"If fansubs and raw anime were not available AT ALL, then I'm sure I would be buying more anime than I am now. I would be renting more anime than also."

Read that twice, Cutiebunny. Keropi states exactly that scanlations and fansubs ARE reducing the revenue of the companies bringing the shows over here, just as I said.

Going further:

"But the point is, the end result is still the same. I can go online and read chapter one, I can go to a library and read chapter one or I can head to a bookstore like Borders and read chapter one."

The end result ISN'T the same. Obviously, it's best for publishers for you to buy the anime/manga yourself. However, even RENTING it from a rental store increases revenue for the publisher because the rental store will stock it. Look at Blockbuster on release day for a hot new movie. They have something like 50 copies. Why so many? Why not just 10 copies? They bought more because they knew people would be coming to rent it. Let's pretend we have an anime, "Goddess Girl Academy". So our hypothetical rental shop buys a single copy of GGA volume 1 on it's release and the dang thing is almost always off the shelf. When volume 2 comes out, the owner thinks how he can't keep volume 1 available, so he gets TWO copies of GGA volume 2, and maybe gets another copy of volume 1 to boot.... HOWEVER.... if the rental shop owner bought that single copy of GGA volume 1 and it usually just collected dust, he definitely won't get more of volume 1 and what do you think the chances are he will get volume 2 at all?

Libraries work the same way. Right now, libraries won't even take manga for FREE. I tried to offer a few manga sets for free to some local libraries and I was told, almost verbatum, that they didn't see a reason to keep it in the library because everyone "downloads those things online". They figure no one would check it out, and with the tiny funding most libraries get (most are pressed for space too), they sure aren't going to buy something that won't bring people in... Less revenue for the publishers. But what if libraries started to carry it because people came to get it? Do you KNOW how many libraries there are in the US?? What if even HALF of them bought just ONE copy of a given manga?? That's a lot of manga.

Ultimately, the biggest difference is also in possession. When you take it out of the library, do you get to keep it? NO. When you read it in Borders, do you get to keep it? NO. When you download it, do you get to keep it?.... Gee. I seem to have found a BIG difference.

"Back in the day when I first got involved in anime/manga fandom (around 1990), most of us dreamed of the day when things would be available commercially in the US. All we had were craptastic photocopies, and for video, nth generation vhs - a professional release meant clear images and better translations."

Exactly. If you want to know how bad "good" fansubs were, I should show you some of my original Ranma 1/2 fansubs. This is why I'm saying that one of the problems is that scanlators and digisubbers are trying to produce such a professional and polished item. It's just one more excuse for people to get it for free and not support the creators of the piece.

Additionally, the digital media makes it harder to pull things that are licenced the way that VHS fansubbers could. With the way VHS both degrades on it's own and degrades when copied, the VHS fansub copies available quickly went to pot after fansubbers stopped copying from masters, even if some unscrupulous person attempted to keep distributing. Digisubs and scanlations, on the other hand, are pretty much immortal and retain high quality no matter how many times they're copied, unless someone has a hard drive crash or a file gets corrupted... and you do NOT need fantastic equiptment to pull it off either.

I'm one of the very rare people who use fansubs/digisubs for previewing only. Do I watch the whole thing fansubbed? Frequently yes. Do I get impatient and watch it fansubbed because the anime companies are taking their time? I admit it, yes. However, do I BUY the whole legal release? If I didn't delete the show as disinteresting after a couple episodes, YES. I have only once not bought the US release of a show for which I own fansubs, and for the only show I have fansubbed which was never released in the US, I purchased the Japanese DVD box set for it. (If a US release did/does happen, I'll be there with cash in hand.) Finally, when I dispose of fansubs for which legal releases are available, I do NOT give them to someone else, I destroy them.

I generally don't bother with scanlations, but for the two times I did, my US-released R.O.D. is on the shelf RIGHT NEXT TO my Japanese-released copies with the scanlation translations written into them. Saiyuki sits on my shelf, Japanese beside English, in the same way. (In this case, the creators win twice, since I bought both versions.)

THIS is how fansubs and scanlations should be treated.

(And since I'm sure people will ask, the one show I own fansubbed which I've not purchased is YuYu Hakusho. IMHO, the US release was so heavily edited, recut, and intentionally mistranslated, that it is no longer the original show and I refuse to support THAT kind of bastardized release. It is not a case of wanting to get the show for free, it is using where my money is NOT going as a way to express my displeasure.)

"I would support them forcing scantalators to take down anything that’s been licensed already. If only there was a way to discriminate. I just find it really unfair to deny us to be able to read things that we have no option to buy in English."

I really have to agree with you, Sky Rat. I know there are people out there who are harder core than I am, who would say that if a Japanese writer didn't want to sell to a US audience, then the US audience has no right to demand to be able to read the given book... but I see that as kind of silly. First, I can't see someone not wanting to make money off their work... but even if one writer didn't, for some bizarre reason, the bottom line is most manga/anime are released or not released here depending on if someone thinks they can make money off it. For those things that wouldn't make enough money to be brought here, I see no problem with fansubs/fan translations.

Which kind of leads into Zerospace's good question:

"I've got a question for all of you who read manga online: If you could read Japanese, would you buy your manga from Japan, then?"

I don't read online, but my answer would be yes. Wherever possible, I prefer to read things in the original. Amazon.co.jp also makes it amazingly easy to aquire books from Japan. (Also legal soundtrack CDs!) Even though I don't read Japanese, I frequently purchase Japanese manga.

Lastly, I couldn't help but laugh at:

"Where are you finding manga for $3?? The stuff I’ve been buying costs $10-13.
I remember the days when it all cost $16.99 though, so you won’t be hearing any complaints from me.
"

I hear you. Blade of the Immortal is STILL $17-$20 per volume, damn my addiction to it.... But 22 volumes later, I'm still reading AND BUYING EVERY VOLUME.

Many Sharp Smiles,
--Drac
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Post by Gonzai »

Sky Rat wrote:
dude_moose wrote:I may have gotten a little off topic, but::

Honestly, I'm not sure how many JAPANESE pay for weekly releases of manga. It's common practice for many in Japan to read weekly releases like Shonen Jump in convenience stores. These people probably never pay for their manga either, or who don't buy it until it is serialized into volumes. I feel like this isn't much different than reading scanlations online. It's simply the only version available to us as consumers who expect access as soon as something is released.
I don't think that picture is an accurate representation of Japan. I have been to MANY Japanese convinience stores. That is seriously not a typical scene. Manga in Japanese bookstores comes shirk wrapped. It is impossible to read in the store 90% of the time.
I would beg to differ with you on that. When Jenn, Nikki
and I were in Tokyo in February, that was the EXACT scene
in every convenience store we went into. We even commented
on it a few times, and Midori said that Japanese men always
read manga at convenience stores all the time. :wink:
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Post by Sky Rat »

Gonzai wrote: I would beg to differ with you on that. When Jenn, Nikki
and I were in Tokyo in February, that was the EXACT scene
in every convenience store we went into. We even commented
on it a few times, and Midori said that Japanese men always
read manga at convenience stores all the time. :wink:
o__0 I lived there for 5 months and really didn't see that...

Oh well. *shrugs*

...I still disagree with the opinion that the average Japanese person doesn't purchase their manga. Even if that is common in convinience stores, that would only be the case with digest manga. The graphic novels in book stores are still usually shrink wrapped.

I'll admit that for years I was one of the people who read a lot of their manga right in the bookstore...I felt that when places like Borders put out chairs they're pretty much giving you permission to loiter and read in the store. Store employees will walk right past you as you read and not say anything about it. I really got a completely different vibe from Japanese book stores. I never saw any with chairs in them and I most definitely got the strong impression that reading in the store was frowned upon. I was never comfortable trying to preview anything (not that I could since most of what I bought was plastic wrapped.)
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Post by cutiebunny »

Drac of the Sharp Smiles wrote:The fact that YOU are getting it at little to no cost does NOT equate to it costing little to nothing to CREATE. The majority of the cost of creating a book of any kind is NOT in the paper and ink used to print it. (Most people assign FAR too much value to the paper/ink -- go read some of the arguements about digital book downloads for the Kindle, etc, if you don't believe me.) Paper/ink is one of the tiniest costs in the whole process. The majority of the cost is paying the artist, the writer, the editor, the publicist, etc, etc, etc...
But that's not the point. What I was referring to is that people can easily obtain music, videos, comics, books, etc. and carry it around on small, portable devices to enjoy whenever. And companies cater to this by selling media at a nominal cost. I would hope that the fee that I pay to buy legitimate copies does cover something, but, I realize that companies are stuck between a rock & a hard place - either sell it for a reasonable cost or expect people to obtain it through illegitimate means. So, it's either recoup some of your cost or none at all.

As in the music industry, the way a performer earns money is through concerts and not through CD sales. It may be that mangaka are going to have to follow a similar route. I'd imagine that there's a good fee for artists to participate in signings/conventions, or, at the very least, an all expense paid trip to said location.
BTW, Cutiebunny, I could not utterly and totally disagree with you more about kids in the US not having spending money. Kids have more spending power in this country than almost anywhere else in the world. Even if that weren't the case, I still hold by the same words Zerospace used: "I'm of the opinion that if you can't afford it, you don't get to have it." IMHO, that goes for EVERYTHING that is optional in life. If you WORK for it, you can have it. There's no reason a kid can't flip burgers to make some cash if mom and dad aren't handing any out -- they just DON'T WANNA. Boo-hoo.
That was before the depression.

Here's a nice CNN article about the current situation in the US - http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/06/08/ch ... l?hpt=Sbin

I know plenty of kids that would love to have part time jobs but there are none out there. In this economy, it's hard to find a job - even one at McDonalds. Prior to 2008, most of these stores would have signs out asking for help. But once the depression hit, those signs disappeared. I can't tell you the last time I've seen a "HELP WANTED" sign at Burger King.

There's a reason why, just this past Christmas, the president of Toys R Us was gloating that, due to the depression, the workforce at his stores are not only more efficient, but more intelligent. He even bragged about having college grads and CPAs working there. If Toys R Us is hiring CPAs, what chances does your average high school kid have?
Frankly, I pay for my anime and manga because I want to see more of it. I'm not going to see more if the person writing it can't put a meal on their table because I'm stealing the item they created to sell. You can shake their hand and say "GOOD JOB! AWESOME BOOK!" but when you don't PAY them for the book, do you think they can walk up to their landlord, shake his hand and say "GOOD JOB! AWESOME APARTMENT!" instead of paying rent?
The majority of people have limited funds. They choose to spend them in whatever way they want to. Some prefer to spend it on merchandise affiliated with the anime, while others choose to buy the manga/DVDs. Either way, they are purchasing items that tell the companies that they like the product and want more of it.

The majority of fans support the industry. But the method in which they do it in differs from person to person.

"If fansubs and raw anime were not available AT ALL, then I'm sure I would be buying more anime than I am now. I would be renting more anime than also."

Read that twice, Cutiebunny. Keropi states exactly that scanlations and fansubs ARE reducing the revenue of the companies bringing the shows over here, just as I said.
So one person states this and it now is the gospel truth....?

Perhaps, in some cases, it is. But I would venture that there are other reasons that are affecting it.

The end result ISN'T the same. Obviously, it's best for publishers for you to buy the anime/manga yourself. However, even RENTING it from a rental store increases revenue for the publisher because the rental store will stock it. Look at Blockbuster on release day for a hot new movie. They have something like 50 copies. Why so many? Why not just 10 copies? They bought more because they knew people would be coming to rent it. Let's pretend we have an anime, "Goddess Girl Academy". So our hypothetical rental shop buys a single copy of GGA volume 1 on it's release and the dang thing is almost always off the shelf. When volume 2 comes out, the owner thinks how he can't keep volume 1 available, so he gets TWO copies of GGA volume 2, and maybe gets another copy of volume 1 to boot.... HOWEVER.... if the rental shop owner bought that single copy of GGA volume 1 and it usually just collected dust, he definitely won't get more of volume 1 and what do you think the chances are he will get volume 2 at all?
My original example did not include video stores. They're nonexistent where I live. The Red Box is much more convenient.

The problem with this example is that it assumes that any anime is going to be an instant hit and that, if it's not available for free, tons of people will pick it up and watch it. But unless that item is something shown on TV, the chances of it being so successful that a company can easily make a profit out of it is slim. And as most newbies tend to be younger children who were first exposed to anime from TV, they're more likely to stick with a favorite Naruto episode than venture off to GGA. Kids are like this.

Fans who have been around longer tend to buy their stuff online, either through various companies directly or through second hand markets.
Libraries work the same way. Right now, libraries won't even take manga for FREE. I tried to offer a few manga sets for free to some local libraries and I was told, almost verbatum, that they didn't see a reason to keep it in the library because everyone "downloads those things online". They figure no one would check it out, and with the tiny funding most libraries get (most are pressed for space too), they sure aren't going to buy something that won't bring people in... Less revenue for the publishers. But what if libraries started to carry it because people came to get it? Do you KNOW how many libraries there are in the US?? What if even HALF of them bought just ONE copy of a given manga?? That's a lot of manga.
I think it depends on your library. I know that mine always accepts my manga, in fact, they're elated to get it. There's a larger "teen" section in all the libraries in my area, and they stock them with lots of manga and other graphic novels.
Ultimately, the biggest difference is also in possession. When you take it out of the library, do you get to keep it? NO.
I can make a xerox copy. Or scan it and print it at home. It might require some effort and cost, but either way, the publisher isn't going to see a cent of it.
When you read it in Borders, do you get to keep it? NO. When you download it, do you get to keep it?.... Gee. I seem to have found a BIG difference.
Unless it's a manga that you really enjoy or you're trying to refresh yourself plot-wise, how many people reread manga? Once I read something that I'm only mildly interested in, I don't re-read it again. The same can be said with any books - I love several Shakespeare plays and I've read those many times. But I didn't like "War and Peace", so I'd never read it again.

The same can be said at Borders - you don't see the same people in there, day after day, rereading the same manga day after day, right?

I can't imagine too many people downloading it to keep forever and ever and ever and ever....

I'm one of the very rare people who use fansubs/digisubs for previewing only. Do I watch the whole thing fansubbed? Frequently yes. Do I get impatient and watch it fansubbed because the anime companies are taking their time? I admit it, yes.
Call me old fashioned, but I was always raised with the notion that the only ones that can criticize are the ones that have never done it. That being said, to get upset at people for how they choose to obtain their manga/anime when you yourself have done it(and may continue to do it) defeats your argument.

Shall I use your argument that, if you don't have the money for it, you shouldn't watch it? I mean, if it's available in Japan on DVD, you should import the DVD and watch it. Otherwise, you shouldn't 'preview' it. That's taking away money from the industry and the mangaka.

See how stupid that sounds?

It would be nice if we lived in an ideal world where everyone could buy everything. But the US industry needs to evolve with the times and instead of punishing people for liking anime and eradicating all the items (including those that are not and will not be licensed), why not reward them with a legitimate site where they can watch the anime, fansubs and all? And if they like a show, they'll buy the merchandise, which will support the industry, the mangaka, etc.
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Drac of the Sharp Smiles
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Post by Drac of the Sharp Smiles »

cutiebunny wrote:
I'm one of the very rare people who use fansubs/digisubs for previewing only. Do I watch the whole thing fansubbed? Frequently yes. Do I get impatient and watch it fansubbed because the anime companies are taking their time? I admit it, yes.
Call me old fashioned, but I was always raised with the notion that the only ones that can criticize are the ones that have never done it. That being said, to get upset at people for how they choose to obtain their manga/anime when you yourself have done it(and may continue to do it) defeats your argument.
Call me tired of sound-bytes, but cutting off the important part of what someone said to try to make it sound like they're saying something else is generally one of those new-fangled moves made by people who really have no good arguement, but don't want to admit it, so they attempt to shift attention and hope no one notices. If you can, please quote where I said I'm 100% against fansubs or fan translations and that anyone who downloads is evil. The problem is when people ONLY download. You know full well THAT is what's being discussed and it seems you would rather dodge that or make lame excuses for why it's okay to steal, rather than stand up and admit wrong.

"either sell it for a reasonable cost or expect people to obtain it through illegitimate means."

So it's now the company's fault that you're stealing? Let's think of the list of things that have been blamed or that make it okay.... The economy being bad means it's okay to steal. Wanting something but not wanting to pay for it means it's okay to steal. Something not bearing a price tag you like means it's okay to steal. The fact that society has encouraged you to have feelings of entitlement means it's okay to steal. If you buy something else completely different from manga, but still related to the given series, then it's okay to steal the manga. You don't intend to read the manga twice, so it's okay to steal. Lastly, these mangaka don't work hard enough! The mangaka should be facilitating your stealing by making their money some OTHER way after they're done writing, instead of expecting money for the books they wrote.

Did I miss any excuses?

These are all arguements that, if applied to a case of theft in court would get you laughed out of the building. But because you didn't actually break a window to get in somewhere to take it, you aren't connecting that you're doing essentially the same thing.

Here's the bottom line. When someone works to create a manga, they deserve to be paid for successful work. I am paying people for their work. People who only download are not. It's that simple. For every person that downloads a manga without buying it or borrowing it from a source that IS paying the creator, that means the people making the anime and manga are putting money in to create something, while getting nothing back.... Money in.... No money out. How much free money do you think they have to put in? Eventually, they will no longer put money into it and then you have no manga. It won't happen tomorrow or next month, it will be slow, but it WILL dry up and die for lack of funding. Unless something changes.
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Post by iceman57 »

ABOUT FREE
cutiebunny wrote:We have people, not only in the US, but around the world, who believe that free, uncensored access to the internet is an inalienable human right. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it's brought up before the UN to be incorporated in their list soon.
Virtual utopia, everything has a cost, even cutting out labor work, rest is server, domain registration through ICANN... who pays for ?
About internet, do you use/hack your neighbor wifi access, then this is totally free. Otherwise you've to pay for the connection service.
About censored content, well, internet ain't open at all in any existing country. This is a freedom feeling given to users in order to create a virtual bubble but this is not open at all.
Every country as a list of blacklisted sites, due to laws (pornographic), cultures (alcohol, drugs), reason of state (politics...).
cutiebunny wrote:The concept of paying for something, like an encyclopedia, when you can cite Wikipedia as a credible source for a term paper, is outdated.
Bad example, remember they raised $4 Millions recently, and people paid for in a massive contribution.
Everything has a cost. What you consider as your free access had been paid by others. Why don't you contribute to this site that you quoted as an example.
Who pays the rent at home ? Self contribution or transfering responsability on someone else (Grandma ?) in order to preserve buying budget for anime.

ABOUT RELEASE
dude_moose wrote:Honestly, I'm not sure how many JAPANESE pay for weekly releases of manga. It's common practice for many in Japan to read weekly releases like Shonen Jump in convenience stores.
... Maybe publishing companies should have online subscription services.
Coamix already release in Japan Soten No Ken (Fist of the Blue Sky) and other mangas through mobile phones.
About people living in convinis to read books, same in every store on the planet. I definitively prefer seat in a couch and plunge into the manga instead of standing in a store.
Just a matter of way of life.
Drac of the Sharp Smiles wrote:I'm one of the very rare people who use fansubs/digisubs for previewing only. Do I watch the whole thing fansubbed? Frequently yes. Do I get impatient and watch it fansubbed because the anime companies are taking their time? I admit it, yes. However, do I BUY the whole legal release? If I didn't delete the show as disinteresting after a couple episodes, YES.
Same here. Fact is that mangas and anime are perfectly cutted at the edge of a critical moment and you need to wait months for the next volume.
Luckily from a western point of view, several mangas were licenced when the avalaible list in Japan is large. So you can have a release every month in store.
I faced this issue with "Slam Dunk", where only 28 volumes were release in France and I had to read the end in a Taiwanese manga reading store (no internet, you pay fees to sit on a leather couch, a coke and a bunch of mangas).

ABOUT WAY OF LIFE
cutiebunny wrote:MANGA IS LIFE
Pathetic life...
I definitively prefer have a nice time in a restaurant, take photography of courtyards, Skype with my parents to show them the kid walking in the restroom,...
Drac of the Sharp Smiles wrote:Here's the bottom line. When someone works to create a manga, they deserve to be paid for successful work. I am paying people for their work. People who only download are not. It's that simple. For every person that downloads a manga without buying it or borrowing it from a source that IS paying the creator, that means the people making the anime and manga are putting money in to create something, while getting nothing back.... Money in.... No money out.
Sure. Bet whom is not paying for mangas and waiting in a queue into a comic-con to ask artist for a shikishi before to sell it on Ebay the next day ;)
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Post by duotrouble »

Okay, I've read the article but I'll admit I haven't read this entire thread yet. I stopped at this quote because I'm curious where this mysterious stat came from as the research I have done states completely the opposite.
cutiebunny wrote:The majority of anime fans are still in school and do not have a job.
This site, while it's collectors that need jobs for money, is mostly fans over the age of 18. Another site I frequent had these stats: 3428 over 18 vs 1390 under 18. Sounds to me like more anime fans are over the legal age. Plus, most of the underage fans I personally know are watching it with their parent, who got them involved to begin with. If I'm wrong, please direct me to where this info came from. I hate spreading incorrect theories. Thanks! :)

Now, my quick two cents and then I'll go back to reading this thread. I personally don't like reading manga online either. I do when the manga isn't available in the US. I have a bookcase two deep with US released manga so no one can say I don't support the industry.

That being said, I laughed at the article. I see lawsuits like this come up all the time where nothing happens. It'll get lost in legitigation or cost too much for the ones pursuing it. Besides, their stats come from 2007 to present. Anyone heard of a recession where people, fans included, have made spending cuts?
Can you hear this fangirl squee?!
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