Newbie stupid question.....

For the n00bs of cel collecting and production art . . . and for some of us old-timers, too. Post your questions on anything that puzzles you.
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duotrouble
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Post by duotrouble »

sensei wrote:duotrouble's comment is exactly right, except that some studios stack the A layer on top rather than on the bottom.
You've intrigued me. Please tell me more. :^^:

I remember thinking the A was on top when I first started collecting. I was corrected by someone here. (Sorry, I don't remember who. X| ) I had a cel that the A layer was on top so I figured they must have been mistaken. Then I realized that the layers were actually backwards as there's no way a mouth layer would be below the face layer. Every multiple layer cel I have now has the A on bottom. I'm curious which studios do the reverse. Just curious so I can keep my eyes peeled for them. I don't want to spread incorrect info. :wink:
Can you hear this fangirl squee?!
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sensei
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Post by sensei »

I'll have to check: from the couple of places I looked, I think you're at least 90% correct, but I know I've run into some cases where the A was on top rather than bottom. I think this was, like a lot of things, a studio convention rather than an industry-wide standard.
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klet
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Post by klet »

Keep in mind that some dealers mix up layers. This cel has the layers stacked as A-C-B, but I highly doubt that's how they were filmed. More than likely, the dealer was just matching the mouth layer (C) up to the guy talking (A). It would be interesting to see some cels that do stack the other way, though. I've personally don't own cels stacked that way, but I don't own all the cels in the world yet. :P


:D


Anyway, for all the newbies out there, the linked site explains the difference in how genga and douga are used, but doesn't explain how to tell them apart (something I had a lot of trouble with when I first started collecting).

A douga is always on white paper, and the sequence number is always in the right corner (upper for most cels, lower for cels that slide in from the bottom of the screen). Douga tend to have shading outlined in colored pencils. Their lines are clear and crisp.

The base genga is on white paper as well, but does not always have a sequence number. If it has one, it will be towards the middle of the sketch. Correction genga (or shuusei) are usually yellow, though I've seen a blueish-green, too. Correction genga are even less likely to have sequence numbers on them.
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Kata
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Post by Kata »

klet wrote:The base genga is on white paper as well, but does not always have a sequence number. If it has one, it will be towards the middle of the sketch. Correction genga (or shuusei) are usually yellow, though I've seen a blueish-green, too. Correction genga are even less likely to have sequence numbers on them.
Genga always have a sequence number listed on them anywhere on the genga itself (side middle top bottom). There are some rough sketches which are usually "scrap" or "junk" used in studio wont have a sequence number on them. But a GENGA always has a sequence number on it. Rough sketches are a different subject just like Layouts and shuusei genga.

Shuusei can come in all kinds of colors. I own pink, yellow, blue, green and some other colors (can't think of all right now). These Shuusei (correction) genga sometimes do and sometimes don't have a sequence number on them.

Genga itself same with Shuusei Genga can come with lots of writtings on them and sometimes they don't have any writting on them.

As for Douga they usually have straight fine lines (I guess that's called crisp lines) and usually for CG douga have the shading in the back of the sketch (if it's in front be aware that it could be a genga), but sometimes there isn't any shading on the sketch in front or back so it depends on studio and anime itself.
Douga that are made during cel animation can be mistaken at times for genga nowadays since they have their sequence numbers anywhere on the sketch at times (but usually on top right corner but also sometimes not) and lines aren't as crisp as those new CG douga nowadays. Also it depends on which studio made them, because I own lots of different kind of series and each studio has a differernt way. I own some douga from cel anime that are colorful in front but they are douga and not genga.

Hope this helps!
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sensei
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Post by sensei »

Worth noting: strictly speaking the genga (foundation drawing) is the base sketch that's used by the studio to plan out the actual animation of the scene. So it has an official status that many of the other kinds of drawings that are called genga don't have.

One of the things that confuses the issue is when dealers refer to "rough genga," which could be lots of things, ranging from a senior animator's guidelines to the genga artist on how to execute the scene to doodles and practice sketches that could fall in anywhere in the process. I like the term "genzu" for these "practice drawings," and with CGI series these have come up more often than before. These drawings don't have any official standing in the process and are just the contents of an animator's circular file.

But Kata is right: a genga will always have a sequence number, because these numbers are used on the timing sheet as the senior animator decides how many inbetweeners the scene will need and how the timing of them will go. (I've found cases where the animator sped up or slowed down the number of frames per second for effect). If you didn't have these numbers, the animator wouldn't know how to do this. But the sequence numbers will normally be written beside the figures, and usually the eyes, mouth, etc. will all be together on one sketch. In the dougas these moving parts will be put on different layers.

Dougas will be simpler and neater (I've seen some with white-out to clean them up) because their job is to be photocopied onto the back of acetate sheets (or scanned into digital files) and then colored. That's why the sequence number is put up in the corner and out of the way. They are "paint-by-numbers" drawings.

When you find notations anyplace else on a douga, it's almost always a checker's note pointing out where the cel was mispainted and needs to be corrected, as inthis case. When I looked at the cel at that spot, I found that the highlights in Yue's wings had had to be repainted on the front of the cel, a very unusual strategy.

BTW, I'm still looking for the case I recall where the A layer was on top and I'm starting to think that duotrouble and klet might be right: A = bottom layer might in fact be the industry standard, and the case I encountered was a dealer's reconstruction of a scene.
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