When there are too many cels of the same scene

[bulma_gt]

how do you know which one is the real deal? I present my case

A friend of mine owns this cel




another collector in rubberslug owns this cel

http://karineyannick.rubberslug.com/gal ... mID=184600


And now on YJ there's this cel for sale





http://page9.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k41687087


The cel can be seen on the 00:51 of the episode of CC on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6HUTHKNNuQ


And Im confused, is it possible that they only made one cel and as it has no movement the tv studio kinda 'rotated it' in the anime, so they wouldn't have to make more cels, or do you think they made more than one cel? Im totally confused, and I would like to hear the opinion of the experts

[Moop]

Lol, I don't think that the studios are known for wasting money on making several A1 End cels of the same scene, though I suppose anything's possible. But... are cels from that series known for not having any sequence numbers? Since neither of the examples that you're showing has one, my first reaction would ordinarily have been to think that maybe they're both fancels.

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

I agree with Moop. The lack of sequence numbers is kind of strange. And the fact you know of several of these same cels. It's probably a fan cel, if you can't confirm it's authenticity.

The colors are incredibly striking and beautiful tho. They appear to be well-made cels, nonetheless. If it's from an important scene in the series, then they are probably fan cels but extremely nice ones.

[bulma_gt]

I have several cels from this anime and they all have the sequence number. I also noticed that none of the cels I posted had a sequence number written on, but I thought that maybe back then in the 70's there were times where special cels (like this one which I also assumed it was a A1End) were not marked or maybe the number has been deleted.

This is an important scene of the anime and it should be the only cel of it. If all of them are fancels damn they were expensive, I know my friend paid a lot of money for her cel and probably the one in YJ is also gonna go high. What really calls my attention is that the black lines on the first pic are very well defined, but in the cel of YJ are not which is the way usually the cels of this old anime look due all the time that has passed and the handling that it's had (specially when cels were considered rubbish in the past). Could this also be a tip to say that this is the real one or not? or this effect can also be gotten with fancels that were done a long time ago?

I checked the auction with a translator but it doesn't seem to say anything about this being a fancel

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

I'd say the ones with blacker/darker lines are fan cels for sure because hand inked lines don't fade (easily). I guess anything is possible, but older series, as you say, always have wear and fade. It's impossible to avoid.

One of them may be real, not sure. The problem is knowing the source and the seller's knowledge of the item. Maybe they don't know they are fake? That's a very confusing problem.

[vapalla]

I noticed that the scene on youtube is a moving shot (zooming toward viewer and tilting). If all of the cels you have found were shown in their entirety, you may be able to tell if some show more of the scene than others (like more or their legs or figures fill the cel more than another cel shows.) The figures themselves don't move at all, so they would all look very similar. I have cels from scenes that you might think would be still pans but actually were made with sequenced cels. That may be the case here.

All of these cels show some fading. Because the pics were taken with different cameras, it is hard to tell if the paint on all the cels matches. To top it off, the scene is transparent in the actual show making matching tricky. I'd say that if all the cels had matching paint, they would likely all be original or they would all be fan cels or studio limited editions. If they were all a little different in size and position, they would more likely be parts of a sequence. Because it seems there are no way to get them all together, it might be impossible to answer your question of whether they are all original or from the same source at least.

[dave1999artwork]

Hard to tell- one of the pics is scanned, the other is taken with a digi camera under what is probably a room light. The first picture has paper at the sides of the ink outline from where the douga was sloppily removed. Second pic doesn't have that though..

if you have the anime on dvd or vhs, try pausing it and shift through the frames. If both cels look as if they are from the same sequence, and have no variation in terms of character's body movement, then I'd question the authenticity. You can get fan cels now whereby it's auctioned off as a normal cel, which is a bit dodgy.

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

Good points.

Do any of these cels come with sketches? Or does anyone own the matching sketch for this particular scene?

I would think.. if the seller or person who made these cels was trying to fool everyone, they would place a fake sequence number on the cel to make it appear more realistic. I have several cels from Giant Robo without numbers and they are authentic. Several are also trimmed tho, which may also account for the missing sequence information. These cels do not appear to be trimmed, but I don't know.

The large picture with the black BG, there appears to be white paper around the edges of the people. Seems like a sketch or piece of paper might have been stuck and ripped off. Perhaps they are all real..?

[vapalla]

If you look at the scene on youtube there is NO body movement. It has "frozen" figures and swooping camera movement. This suggests camera movement but that movement can also be replicated using cels instead (I have seen this numerous times.)

That's why I suggested that they could possibly be sequence mates.





In the scene the girl is remembering a "stolen" kiss and so the image is superimposed over the view she is looking at.

[bulma_gt]

Ok Im back with this thread

I asked my friend and she didn't have a sketch, the tinny bits of paper that can be seen on the cel are from the background the previous owner had placed with the cel.

I also asked my friend to make a full scan of the cel so I could see it completely, so she went to pick it up to do it and she found the surprise that the color of the dress of Candy had gone from pink to white. Here's the new scan



and the back



I was chatting with Xellos and Kata on Saturday regarding this because I have cels from this anime and that change of color has never happened to me (neither with that anime or other series), so i thought this could be because this was a fan cel and not a production cel. I would like to hear your opinions about this as well.

I was also thinking the reason why these cels have no sequence number. Could it be because as Vapalla said Candy is remembering the kiss and the image is superimposed over the view, therefore is not like a real sequence on the anime?

[Moop]

I also asked my friend to make a full scan of the cel so I could it completely, so she went to pick it up to do it and she found the surprise that the color of the dress of Candy had gone from pink to white.

Ack. If the anime is from the 70s, then the likelihood of the paint fading so drastically during what I assume is the relatively short period that your friend has owned it (as opposed to gradually over the decades) seems rather slim. I have an unfortunate feeling that she probably paid a lot of money for a piece of fan art.

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

Whoa! I've never seen that happen before Especially, as Moop said, in such a short period of time. That's too bad. Definitely not a good sign.

[Caroline]

it's interesting that your friend's cel was stuck to a light blue piece of paper... it is the same color paper as shown with the YJ cel. strange...