I've been collecting for a while, but I still don't know the answers to these questions...So to those who are wise, please lend me your help!!!!!
1). What is the Diff. between Douga and Genga? I always get confused. I know that the Douga comes with a cel. So what do you call a sketch that is from a CG show (the final one that is used)
2).What type of markers do you use to make fancels? And where can they be bought? Where can you buy the clear plastic to paint on?
3).How can you remove the paint that is stuck on top of a cel after another cel was put above it, and left part of itself on the top.
-thanks ^^
Questions about cels and sketches
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moonrabitt
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miz ducky
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I'll try to answer the first question, but I only know because of the previous threads and the many nice and knowledgable people here that enlighten us.
In CG animations, the genga are like the main points in a movement during a cut. For instance, if the character starts looking to the side and then turns to "look towards the camera", then there might only be 2 genga. The A1 would be the profile and the A2 would be forward facing, if the character smiles when they're done turning there might be a A3 showing the smile. Genga are also more colorful and will have some writing on the page.
Douga are more crisp and less colorful than the genga of the same cut. The only markings on a douga are the "A1" type markings on the top corner. There are more douga because douga are the complete movement. Instead of just the A1 and A2 of a genga, there could be A1-A7 to show a head turn.
I suppose that is a basic explanation. Someone else might have more information on the subject. Evidently there is a slight difference when it comes to sketches used to make cels, but I'm not really familiar with the details.
In CG animations, the genga are like the main points in a movement during a cut. For instance, if the character starts looking to the side and then turns to "look towards the camera", then there might only be 2 genga. The A1 would be the profile and the A2 would be forward facing, if the character smiles when they're done turning there might be a A3 showing the smile. Genga are also more colorful and will have some writing on the page.
Douga are more crisp and less colorful than the genga of the same cut. The only markings on a douga are the "A1" type markings on the top corner. There are more douga because douga are the complete movement. Instead of just the A1 and A2 of a genga, there could be A1-A7 to show a head turn.
I suppose that is a basic explanation. Someone else might have more information on the subject. Evidently there is a slight difference when it comes to sketches used to make cels, but I'm not really familiar with the details.
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EternityOfPain
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I will try and explain your first question, the rest I dont know.
"What is the Diff. between Douga and Genga? I always get confused. I know that the Douga comes with a cel. So what do you call a sketch that is from a CG show (the final one that is used)"
What is a douga?
http://eop.rubberslug.com/gallery/maste ... esID=28664
Everything in this section is what is referred to as a "douga". They are sharp, lack colors but are the last stage of the reaction process (what you see in a douga is how it will appear onscreen, however a genga is not always the case, it is slightly different as it is a stage before the douga.)
What is a genga?
http://eop.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... mID=183203
This is a genga, it is far more colorful and you will notice that genga have more then one sequence of say "A3." A douga will very rarely (almost never) have more then one marking on it (again A3, or B4 etc) however a genga can (such as this genga) be a "A1E B1 C1 KEY."
There is another key type of sketches which is called "syuusei" also known as a "retouched version".
Ex. http://eop.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... mID=194485
f you think of the timeline of production you can observe them like this, Genga, syuusei genga (retouched,) followed by douga. Regular genga's can sometimes imperfections, meaning they are not exactly what appears on screen, do to the production deciding to move her hair, an arm, a leg etc at a slightly different position. However a syuusei genga, it sharp and yet colorful. In the collecting world they are the most sought after due to being color and sharp. They tend to be on either yellow or blue paper (sometimes).
If you really want to get technical there are another specification which is "rough genga"
For example, this is the genga (close enough for this point)
http://www.rubberslug.com/user/e9f3780b ... ve0099.JPG
As you can see its colorful, and thus rules out its not a douga, and it can't be a syuusei because the lines are not as sharp as a syuusei. So this is your standard genga
However, there is also like I said a classication of "rough genga"
http://eop.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... mID=220066
Some are even rougher then this, (actually majority are) with rough its not abnormal to see very little detail, maybe even sometimes hard to make out who the character is, these are generally your very basic drawings.
So to sum up everything, this is the order of production:
Rough Genga, Genga, syuusei genga followed by Douga.
"What is the Diff. between Douga and Genga? I always get confused. I know that the Douga comes with a cel. So what do you call a sketch that is from a CG show (the final one that is used)"
What is a douga?
http://eop.rubberslug.com/gallery/maste ... esID=28664
Everything in this section is what is referred to as a "douga". They are sharp, lack colors but are the last stage of the reaction process (what you see in a douga is how it will appear onscreen, however a genga is not always the case, it is slightly different as it is a stage before the douga.)
What is a genga?
http://eop.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... mID=183203
This is a genga, it is far more colorful and you will notice that genga have more then one sequence of say "A3." A douga will very rarely (almost never) have more then one marking on it (again A3, or B4 etc) however a genga can (such as this genga) be a "A1E B1 C1 KEY."
There is another key type of sketches which is called "syuusei" also known as a "retouched version".
Ex. http://eop.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... mID=194485
f you think of the timeline of production you can observe them like this, Genga, syuusei genga (retouched,) followed by douga. Regular genga's can sometimes imperfections, meaning they are not exactly what appears on screen, do to the production deciding to move her hair, an arm, a leg etc at a slightly different position. However a syuusei genga, it sharp and yet colorful. In the collecting world they are the most sought after due to being color and sharp. They tend to be on either yellow or blue paper (sometimes).
If you really want to get technical there are another specification which is "rough genga"
For example, this is the genga (close enough for this point)
http://www.rubberslug.com/user/e9f3780b ... ve0099.JPG
As you can see its colorful, and thus rules out its not a douga, and it can't be a syuusei because the lines are not as sharp as a syuusei. So this is your standard genga
However, there is also like I said a classication of "rough genga"
http://eop.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_i ... mID=220066
Some are even rougher then this, (actually majority are) with rough its not abnormal to see very little detail, maybe even sometimes hard to make out who the character is, these are generally your very basic drawings.
So to sum up everything, this is the order of production:
Rough Genga, Genga, syuusei genga followed by Douga.
I didnt attend the funeral but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it. -Mark Twain
Anime runs my life. I'll leave it to anime to where my life leads me. -EoP
Anime I have Seen
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Anime runs my life. I'll leave it to anime to where my life leads me. -EoP
Anime I have Seen
Slippery slopes of hellish Ice.
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sensei
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The above information is good, but I'll just add a bit to explain why some collectors are fussy about making the distinction. It all has to do with who the artist is. This info is from an interesting insider's description of the animation process by Jan Frazier, who often puts in appearances at Katsucon.
First of all, there are two preliminary steps:
1. Storyboard (usually done by the series or episode director). These are very precious, and generally the only form in which you find them in in the photocopies made by the studio and circulated among the various artists.
2. Layout (usually done, so far as I can tell, by the director, though Frazier says that some are also done by key animators). These are very rough conceptions of where characters will appear on the screen. Often you get these with production backgrounds.
Then you get the steps described correctly by EoP in the post above:
3. Rough (sometimes called "correction layout): these are, for me, the most desirable, as they are usually in the hand of the episode's animation director. They can be extremely beautiful or very preliminary (and I've seen the term "genzu" or "exploratory drawing" to refer to these "rough roughs). Anyhow, this sketch records the moment when the image that ends up on screen is created; everything afterwards is clean-up and refinement.
4. Genga ("original or foundation drawing"): these, according to Frazier, are drawn by "gengamen" (though some are women), who are senior animators assigned to the "key" or most important moments in the scene. A genga set is incomplete, since it only defines the beginning, end, and critical positions of the characters' movements.
5. Syuusei or Shuusei ("correction"): these are again done by the animation director. In most cases they are partial, only cleaning up the bits that the animation director found faulty in the gengaman's work. But I have seen some lovely complete shuuseis where the director completely replaced the gengaman's drawing with one of his/her own.
6. Douga ("animating drawing"): these are traced versions of the key gengas, along with "inbetweeners" that link the genga images smoothly. These tracings eventually are transferred to the acetate on which the cel is painted or scanned to be colorized by CGI artists. Quoth Frazier:
Cels, btw, tend to be painted in sweatshop circumstances and their artists are among the lowest paid and least creative in the process. Hence, while they are visually the most compelling art that comes from the animation process, they are actually the object that involves the least amount of creative artistry. That's why some of us develop a thing for roughs, gengas, and shuuseis, even for shows where cels are also available, because they are the most tangible products of the talented artists who actually created the anime.
A lot of info: but if you look at a lot of this kind of art, you'll soon begin to appreciate it, as well as the immense amount of work that goes into even the simplest animated scenes.
First of all, there are two preliminary steps:
1. Storyboard (usually done by the series or episode director). These are very precious, and generally the only form in which you find them in in the photocopies made by the studio and circulated among the various artists.
2. Layout (usually done, so far as I can tell, by the director, though Frazier says that some are also done by key animators). These are very rough conceptions of where characters will appear on the screen. Often you get these with production backgrounds.
Then you get the steps described correctly by EoP in the post above:
3. Rough (sometimes called "correction layout): these are, for me, the most desirable, as they are usually in the hand of the episode's animation director. They can be extremely beautiful or very preliminary (and I've seen the term "genzu" or "exploratory drawing" to refer to these "rough roughs). Anyhow, this sketch records the moment when the image that ends up on screen is created; everything afterwards is clean-up and refinement.
4. Genga ("original or foundation drawing"): these, according to Frazier, are drawn by "gengamen" (though some are women), who are senior animators assigned to the "key" or most important moments in the scene. A genga set is incomplete, since it only defines the beginning, end, and critical positions of the characters' movements.
5. Syuusei or Shuusei ("correction"): these are again done by the animation director. In most cases they are partial, only cleaning up the bits that the animation director found faulty in the gengaman's work. But I have seen some lovely complete shuuseis where the director completely replaced the gengaman's drawing with one of his/her own.
6. Douga ("animating drawing"): these are traced versions of the key gengas, along with "inbetweeners" that link the genga images smoothly. These tracings eventually are transferred to the acetate on which the cel is painted or scanned to be colorized by CGI artists. Quoth Frazier:
Gengas have the key number written on the sketch beside the character; dougas have the sequence number written in the upper right corner (or sometimes, for oversized images, in the lower right corner). The ones that are traced from the key gengas have the numbers circled. This is how you can tell that a cel painted from that douga is a "key," i.e., an image directly based on a senior animator's genga, as corrected by the animation director's shuusei.Inbetweening is a relatively non-creative job. It is more tracing than anything else. The hours are long and the key animators are sometimes very hard to work with. The cruelest part of being an inbetweener is that they rarely get to work on anything they are fans of and what they do get to work on they burn out on quickly. [...] After 2 or 3 years of grueling inbetweening, animators who can handle it are usually promoted to keys.
Cels, btw, tend to be painted in sweatshop circumstances and their artists are among the lowest paid and least creative in the process. Hence, while they are visually the most compelling art that comes from the animation process, they are actually the object that involves the least amount of creative artistry. That's why some of us develop a thing for roughs, gengas, and shuuseis, even for shows where cels are also available, because they are the most tangible products of the talented artists who actually created the anime.
A lot of info: but if you look at a lot of this kind of art, you'll soon begin to appreciate it, as well as the immense amount of work that goes into even the simplest animated scenes.
Re: Questions about cels and sketches
Well, I think the first question got covered pretty well, question 2 can be answered here:
http://www.requiemart.com/cels/supplies.html
She's got everything you want to know about fan cel painting.
As for paint removal on top of the cel, usually a little careful fingernail scratch will do the trick. If that doesn't work use a little bit of water. I try not to use any other harsh chemical products on the cel.
http://www.requiemart.com/cels/supplies.html
She's got everything you want to know about fan cel painting.
As for paint removal on top of the cel, usually a little careful fingernail scratch will do the trick. If that doesn't work use a little bit of water. I try not to use any other harsh chemical products on the cel.
"If ifs and buts are clusters and nuts, we'd all have a bowl of granola." -- Stephen Colbert
http://ix.rubberslug.com/
http://ix.rubberslug.com/
Re: Questions about cels and sketches
If the paint is seriously adhered, a Q-tip dipped in isopropyl alcohol (a.k.a. rubbing alcohol) - and squeezed out enough so that it is just moist - will remove paint from a cel with a minimum of gentle wiping. Two things to remember: Never use it close to paint or ink that you don't want removed, because it is completely indiscriminate!moonrabitt wrote:3).How can you remove the paint that is stuck on top of a cel after another cel was put above it, and left part of itself on the top
And secondly, after you are done removing the paint, remove all traces of alcohol with a bit of distilled water. Then air dry, or dry with a lint free cloth. I was given this method by an aquaintance who does professional restoration, and it proved highly effective for removing cracked and peeling correction paint. Years later, the cel still looks perfect.As for any basic questions you may have, Key's FAQ remains one of the best available quick answer resources. You can do a search from there, or access all of the subheadings.
Edit: In her post below, Kata is SO right, and I shouldn't have left this out on the assumption that you knew it already! Always check the surface of your cel under a bright light before doing any work on it. Trace lines, especially, can be easy to miss if you don't look for them.
Last edited by Moop on Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Questions about cels and sketches
I want to point out that you need to be careful at times. A lot of cels have paint on top of the cel layer. You can't always see them. Inspect the cel on top very carefully before you do try to clean up/remove the paint.moonrabitt wrote: 3).How can you remove the paint that is stuck on top of a cel after another cel was put above it, and left part of itself on the top.
-thanks ^^
As Moop said check out Key's site and look for How do I clean a cel http://www.fukushuu.org/cels/faqitem.php?g=c&cf=77
Here is the main page for all your questions:
http://www.fukushuu.org/cels/faqsection.php?g=c&ft=2
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moonrabitt
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Thanks so much guys! I want to thank all of you for the info on the genga, dougas and so on...You are so wise ^_^
So to sum up all of the knowledge that you guys have spilled out:
1).Storyboard
2).Layout
----------------
*Genga numbers are towards the center*
3).Rough Genga/Correction Layout (Basic Drawing,white paper, no color)
4).Genga (colorful, white paper)
5).syuusei genga (yellow. sharp and colorful, could be on other colors, is touch up, can include only body parts, or full drawing)
6).Douga (Final one, most crisp, no color) (number on top right) -LAST stage
---------------------------
Thanks for the fancel page, I shall read it ^_^
------------------------------
So to take paint off I should not use harsh chemicals. I could use my nail, and water. I can also use a q-tip with rubbing alcohol, but make sure that it does not damage trace lines....
(I did not know about that, thanks, I could have accidentally hurt my cels that way 0_0)
----------------
Again thanks...I always though that it was syuusei genga, then the genga, now it makes more sense
I did not know about the sweatshops 0_0, thanks for that info too...
Thanks again to all of you ^_^
So to sum up all of the knowledge that you guys have spilled out:
1).Storyboard
2).Layout
----------------
*Genga numbers are towards the center*
3).Rough Genga/Correction Layout (Basic Drawing,white paper, no color)
4).Genga (colorful, white paper)
5).syuusei genga (yellow. sharp and colorful, could be on other colors, is touch up, can include only body parts, or full drawing)
6).Douga (Final one, most crisp, no color) (number on top right) -LAST stage
---------------------------
Thanks for the fancel page, I shall read it ^_^
------------------------------
So to take paint off I should not use harsh chemicals. I could use my nail, and water. I can also use a q-tip with rubbing alcohol, but make sure that it does not damage trace lines....
(I did not know about that, thanks, I could have accidentally hurt my cels that way 0_0)
----------------
Again thanks...I always though that it was syuusei genga, then the genga, now it makes more sense
I did not know about the sweatshops 0_0, thanks for that info too...
Thanks again to all of you ^_^
Sorry to piggyback my question here, but does anyone know anything about cels with retangular production holes? I remembered a long time ago that this was brought up, but I can no longer find the thread.
Does anyone have an info on these. I'm interested in a cel, but I don't want to pay too much for something that isn't a production cel.
Does anyone have an info on these. I'm interested in a cel, but I don't want to pay too much for something that isn't a production cel.
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RoboFlonne
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I don't have any sketches or cels with rectangular holes...Kujaku wrote:Sorry to piggyback my question here, but does anyone know anything about cels with retangular production holes? I remembered a long time ago that this was brought up, but I can no longer find the thread.
Does anyone have an info on these. I'm interested in a cel, but I don't want to pay too much for something that isn't a production cel.
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Thanks for bumping this upRoboFlonne wrote:I don't have any sketches or cels with rectangular holes...Kujaku wrote:Sorry to piggyback my question here, but does anyone know anything about cels with retangular production holes? I remembered a long time ago that this was brought up, but I can no longer find the thread.
Does anyone have an info on these. I'm interested in a cel, but I don't want to pay too much for something that isn't a production cel.
Apparently no one here who knows wants to answer the question. It would have been a lot easier if I could find the old threads that actually discussed this. 