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Does cel plastics (cel bags) contribute to line fading?

Im quite conscious because the plastic is always in contact with the trace line. So im not sure if those bags that comes with the cel has acid or not.

If anyone knows or sells high quality cel bags. Let me know

Thanks and more power to all!

Elot

I've read a great deal of folklore about this issue, as well as alternative theories on the cause of this problem. From an observer's perspective (though without the chemical knowledge needed to resolve it) it seems clear that the cel paint is more a factor in fading than the nature of the cel bag. I say this because, in my experience, certain colors are more likely than others to be associated with faded lines: especially orange and green, and also certain shades of flesh tones. As the trace line is on the back of the cel and is usually entirely covered by the cel paint, and as not all trace lines fade evenly, I can't see what else would be causing it.

[Edit: there are some trace lines added on the front that would be in constant contact with the cel bag. In my experience, these are the slowest to fade, and often you can judge the extent of line fading by observing the contrast between the darkness of these front and back lines. Hold the cel up to a light at a sharp angle and you'll be able to see which parts of the trace lines are on the front and which are on the back.]

Light of course accelerates the process, but even there (and I've seen some that were badly faded, probably due to being on constant display in a dealer's stock) some lines fade badly, others not at all.

Another reason I think this is that most cels after storage in cel bags cause the plastic in the bags to pucker up, indicating that there's some property in the paint that is chemically active. Again, only the parts in direct contact with the paint pucker, not the entire bag. While it's often suggested that one should snip off one end of the cel bag to let the cel "breathe" and so minimize fading, since the trace lines most affected are encased in the paint, I can't imagine that this would help. (It does make them easier to store, so I do it anyhow.)

Just my 500 yen: I'm sure more experienced collectors will have more technical things to say to this issue.

Reiterating what sensei said, Cels in general will fade. Now you can slow this process down a number of ways. First as far as bags are concerned you should change the bag every 6 months (some say 6-12 months i guess its a collectors preference). The problem is regardless what negative traits the bag gives you, its a shit load better then leaving a cel unbagged... My suggestion is simply change the bag every 6 months, store in a cool dark place, and make sure you arent stacking them. This is the only thing you can really do to perseve a cel. Unless of course you are extremely rich i am sure there is some hugely costly method thats unkown to this low level collector

Guess that makes me a bad owner

Ive only replaced bags on my cels when I 1st purchased them


I dunno if I have the patience to go thru all of the books
and tear open and rebag cels.

I know another way to avoid crap getting on your
cels is ziploc bagging your celbook
Keeps the dusties out

Shampoo wrote:Guess that makes me a bad owner

Ive only replaced bags on my cels when I 1st purchased them

Don't worry, you're not alone in (not) doing that.

I know another way to avoid crap getting on your
cels is ziploc bagging your celbook
Keeps the dusties out

...where are you finding ziploc bags *that* big??

syan wrote:...where are you finding ziploc bags *that* big??

I saw them today in K-Mart. They're just called Ziploc Big Bags. XL are 2' x 1.7' and Extra extra large are 2' x 2.7'

To answer the original question, archival cel bags can be gotten from a lot of different places. I get mine from Light Impressions, an online concern that sells a variety of archival bags and boxes suitable for gengas.

http://www.LightImpressionsDirect.com

There are, I'm sure, lots and lots of other places.

Shampoo wrote:Guess that makes me a bad owner

Ive only replaced bags on my cels when I 1st purchased them


I dunno if I have the patience to go thru all of the books
and tear open and rebag cels.

I know another way to avoid crap getting on your
cels is ziploc bagging your celbook
Keeps the dusties out

Go change them now!

Elot wrote:Does cel plastics (cel bags) contribute to line fading?

Im quite conscious because the plastic is always in contact with the trace line. So im not sure if those bags that comes with the cel has acid or not.

If anyone knows or sells high quality cel bags. Let me know

Thanks and more power to all!

Elot

I have some polypropelene cel bags in various sizes. I have some auctions on E-bay currently for medium(A4L), large(B4) and x-large(B4L) bags. They're very high quality bags and are acid free. I've used them on my cels as well. Let me know if you're interested.

Here's some pics of the bags that I made for auction purposes:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-8/4 ... agsa4l.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-8/4 ... bagsb4.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-8/4 ... agsb4l.jpg

sensei wrote:

syan wrote:...where are you finding ziploc bags *that* big??

I saw them today in K-Mart. They're just called Ziploc Big Bags. XL are 2' x 1.7' and Extra extra large are 2' x 2.7'

Learn something random everyday. Thanks for the info!

EternityOfPain wrote:Reiterating what sensei said, Cels in general will fade. Now you can slow this process down a number of ways. First as far as bags are concerned you should change the bag every 6 months (some say 6-12 months i guess its a collectors preference). The problem is regardless what negative traits the bag gives you, its a shit load better then leaving a cel unbagged... My suggestion is simply change the bag every 6 months, store in a cool dark place, and make sure you arent stacking them. This is the only thing you can really do to perseve a cel. Unless of course you are extremely rich i am sure there is some hugely costly method thats unkown to this low level collector

Oh gee...that's how I've been storing my cels, is by stacking my Itoya books Oops. I'll have to change that post-haste!!

I wouldn't be so concerned with the cel bags causing line fading. The two biggest issues with line fading are certain paints attacking them, and UV light. It seems the light issue has been down-played a little, but it is a very serious contributor. Ask anyone who has put a cel up on the wall for a few months with regular glass, instead with UV protected glass or acrylic.

As far as changing the bags goes, if you have the correct bags, the materials from which the bags are made should be pretty safe for fairly long storage periods. Of a much bigger concern is that the cel material itself breaks down and out-gasses. The reason for changing the bags is just to let the gasses escape and slow the process. You don't really need to change the bags, but you need to either leave them unsealed or open them up on occasion.... actually, it isn't a bad idea to kind of pull open the bag after a long period, even if it is unsealed. Believe me, any tiny amount of line fading will be of much less concern compared to the discoloration and actual breakdown of the cel material if things go too far. You don't want to open up your bag after 10 years and smell vinegar.....

Robert

Thanks for reply all, since Sensei pointed up some facts its the first time i do notice the fading is behind the acetate not the front. I use to base everything on some old toei cels i have.

I do read on rubberslug or somewhere that having sketch with the cel contributes to line fading. My understanding since the trace line is in between the paint and acetate. Only humidty or light can cause it too fade. Am i missing something?

Thanks
Elot

I would not store cel books in large Ziploc bags, mostly because those bags were not meant for long term storage of anything. Also, when you seal out the dust with a Ziploc you can trap gases and possible moisture released from cel books, cel paint, tape residual, rusting staples, acetate and cel bags. I would also hesitate storing sketches, photos, drawings and other items long term in Ziploc bags.

I sent an e-mail to find out the chemical composition of the bags and here is the reply I received from the company:

"Thank you for your e-mail. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.

While specific ingredient information is considered confidential, please know Ziploc® Storage Bags and Ziploc® Big Bags are made from Polyethylene Plastic Resin (PE).

Non-food items can be stored in Ziploc® Bags for 1 to 2 years. For longer storage, or storage of "precious" collectibles such as Beanie Babies, baseball cards, etc., we recommend using a storage case meant for this purpose.

Plastics have a tendency to yellow over time as they age. There is some concern that if the polyethylene yellowed with age, that yellowing could transfer to the item stored in the bag.

I hope this information is helpful."

So please be careful!