removing stuck paper from a cel
- noiwontsayplease
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removing stuck paper from a cel
Back when I first started collecting cels, I bought one of those Itoya books, thinking, "archival safe paper and sleeves! Perfect for storing my cels" which is true, if you, you know, also bag the cels. Being young and ignorant, I did no such thing, putting the cels directly onto the paper. This in itself isn't actually harmful - unless a small bit of moisture or heat (like a hot summer day when the air isn't on) gets applied to the book, and then you come home to discover that you've firmly adhered the cels to the paper.
Since then, I've learned about proper cel storage, but out of terror, I never removed the paper from those cels, just sort of cut out the unstuck areas of the paper and left it on the back.
Well, tonight I finally sat down with a handful of Q-tips and a glass of water and I ever, ever so gently pried, peeled, scraped off all of that black from the backs. It took a long time, but ultimately, I didn't remove a single bit of paint and my cels are back to their former glory, except there are some still tiny, thin shreds of paper on the backs of some, but I'm willing to accept that.
I had a Sailor Moon Saturn cel with just a ton of paper, completely stuck to it, I wanted to cry. But now it's back to normal! I think I had about 15 cels stuck to the paper in this manner.
Basically, I wet down the backside of the paper several times so that the other side had water saoked through and was slightly damp. This actually made it possible to basically slowwwwwwly peel the paper off, something that was not at all possible when the paper was dry. I imagine this would also work with sketches, but you're more or less guaranteed to ruin the paper so it's probably not a good idea. I was worried the water might thin the paint, but since the paint never got much water on it (just the paper got damp), it was a groundless fear.
So if you're ever dumb enough to do something like this, now you know it's possible to remove the paper without damaging the cel!
Since then, I've learned about proper cel storage, but out of terror, I never removed the paper from those cels, just sort of cut out the unstuck areas of the paper and left it on the back.
Well, tonight I finally sat down with a handful of Q-tips and a glass of water and I ever, ever so gently pried, peeled, scraped off all of that black from the backs. It took a long time, but ultimately, I didn't remove a single bit of paint and my cels are back to their former glory, except there are some still tiny, thin shreds of paper on the backs of some, but I'm willing to accept that.
I had a Sailor Moon Saturn cel with just a ton of paper, completely stuck to it, I wanted to cry. But now it's back to normal! I think I had about 15 cels stuck to the paper in this manner.
Basically, I wet down the backside of the paper several times so that the other side had water saoked through and was slightly damp. This actually made it possible to basically slowwwwwwly peel the paper off, something that was not at all possible when the paper was dry. I imagine this would also work with sketches, but you're more or less guaranteed to ruin the paper so it's probably not a good idea. I was worried the water might thin the paint, but since the paint never got much water on it (just the paper got damp), it was a groundless fear.
So if you're ever dumb enough to do something like this, now you know it's possible to remove the paper without damaging the cel!
- sensei
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Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
Certainly easier on the cel than the prevalent (and supposedly effective) hair dryer method. (That is said to be easier on the sketch but I'm not trying it on anything that cost me more than 50 yen.) All I'd add is use distilled water so that chemicals in the water aren't absorbed by the paint and leave evaporated spots on the cel.
- backlotanimation
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Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
![Shocked 8O](./images/smilies/02.gif)
Sorry other posters,I mean no insult only to educate from my past tests. If it's just tiny bits of paper from a bad removal of a drawing(sad indeed), it's best to just leave it and place a backing page to cover the back. I hate to see folks lose their production drawings as this is the real art not the cel. never just pull them off dry. remember the drawing was touched by the hand of the animator, the cel may not have been even looked at by the one who drew it. Even hand inked cels for the most part are done by inbetweeners not the animators they use the animators drawing to do the inking.
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- nowherekid85
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Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
I did this to a few of my stuck cels after speaking with you at Metrocon a couple of years ago. The method works great and I was able to separate my sketches and cels quite easily. Some it only took one night, and others closer to a week, but I managed to get all of them taken care of!backlotanimation wrote:***OMG DON"T*** do what is said in these posts you will destroy your production drawings. The easiest and best way to remove stuck drawings is to lay your cel face down on a clean white T-shirt turned inside out(it's softer) next to a open window at night only. the moist air is enough to release the bonded weave of the paper from the paint. Each morning lightly tug up at the edges some will come loose each day. put a pencil between the paper and cel to hold open to the next nights air and after as little as a day or up to a week the drawing WILL come free and no harm will come to your drawings. This comes from a Disney archivist who showed me a great many years ago how to do it.
Use the night air, it works the best. if you have a covered screened porch all the better to lay them out under on a table. But never leave the artwork in the heat of the day or if it's going to rain, just put it out at night time with no chance of rain.
- backlotanimation
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Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
nowherekid85 wrote:I did this to a few of my stuck cels after speaking with you at Metrocon a couple of years ago. The method works great and I was able to separate my sketches and cels quite easily. Some it only took one night, and others closer to a week, but I managed to get all of them taken care of!backlotanimation wrote:***OMG DON"T*** do what is said in these posts you will destroy your production drawings. The easiest and best way to remove stuck drawings is to lay your cel face down on a clean white T-shirt turned inside out(it's softer) next to a open window at night only. the moist air is enough to release the bonded weave of the paper from the paint. Each morning lightly tug up at the edges some will come loose each day. put a pencil between the paper and cel to hold open to the next nights air and after as little as a day or up to a week the drawing WILL come free and no harm will come to your drawings. This comes from a Disney archivist who showed me a great many years ago how to do it.
Use the night air, it works the best. if you have a covered screened porch all the better to lay them out under on a table. But never leave the artwork in the heat of the day or if it's going to rain, just put it out at night time with no chance of rain.
I super happy it worked for you, I have had only one cel it did not work on, so I left the drawing alone. it was a cel covered in a red paint that was like glue, I think the drawing was placed on it while the paint was still wet or not fully dry;This sometimes happens to last minute changes or delayed to the last moment painting.
Enjoy your rescued drawings and happy collecting!
Roy aka Backlotanimation
"And that is why you fail!"
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Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
I am super stoked to try this method as I have a few cels that are stuck to drawings. I've been too terrified to try anything with water for risk of destroying both. Thanks for the tip!
- nowherekid85
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Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
I actually love unsticking cels from sketches lol. I love the method that backlotanimation wrote. I just unstuck a few more cels last month. One was stuck pretty bad to the paper, but with this method, the sketch pretty much peeled right off like it was nothing!cscratch wrote:I am super stoked to try this method as I have a few cels that are stuck to drawings. I've been too terrified to try anything with water for risk of destroying both. Thanks for the tip!
![Very Happy :-D](./images/smilies/04.gif)
I don't have a screened in porch and I don't have a good window to use and leave open with the cel in front of it, so I have to leave the cels in my backyard (It's completely fenced in so no worries that someone will be wander back there) I have an airline dog kennel that I use, with garbage bags duct taped on to cover the ventilation holes on the sides in case it does rain by surprise, even though I check the hourly forecast for that night. I duct tape noseeum netting over the door to the kennel to make sure bugs can't get inside. And then I can fit 2-3 cels inside of this thing. So if you don't have a porch or something, just make a little setup like this!
Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
I am so curious about this!! I have seen several collectors leave a sketch stuck to its cel, rather than damaging it by forcing it off with a bit of water when all else failed. But my question is...why? If the sketch is a lost cause - already pretty much categorized as damaged simply because it can no longer be viewed and enjoyed (or as in the case you mentioned, probably completely stained with red paint), then rather than have both the cel and the sketch at less than optimal beauty, what is the purpose of leaving one adhered to the other? If I damage a sketch removing it from a cel, I feel awful...but the cel looks far better. Each cel that I buy is chosen for a particular reason, whether sentiment, rarity, fondness for a certain scene...whatever. And in all childish honesty, I don't want to look at it with a skewed drawing stuck to it.backlotanimation wrote:I super happy it worked for you, I have had only one cel it did not work on, so I left the drawing alone. it was a cel covered in a red paint that was like glue, I think the drawing was placed on it while the paint was still wet or not fully dry;This sometimes happens to last minute changes or delayed to the last moment painting.
I believe that I have partially damaged three sketches this way...one of them only a couple of days ago. On each, I've sadly peeled a bit of paper, but the cels they were removed from look sensational. So I have to ask you, who are so much more knowledgeable about caring for animation art than I am: what is the rationale behind leaving a cel stuck to its drawing? I wll leave them glued together in the future if there is a solid reason to do so!
Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
If the sketch is blank or a piece of something like and arm, leg etc I remove it the way Moop does. It works great and no harm every came to any cel that I've done this too in 20+ years. If the sketch is matching I just store it away. More times than not when I bring out the cels to re-bag every Christmas, the sketch has become loose and easy to remove. The hard part is removing an actual production background from a cel. That's what I am struggling with now.
- sensei
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Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
I can think of two cases in which I decided not to remove stuck paper. The first was a now ancient cel (1971) from Studio Mushi's Andersen Monogatari (The Tales of Hans Christian Andersen). The paint was not just stuck but plastered to the douga, which however had been flipped so that the drawing was on the opposite side from the cel. To remove it would have involved destroying the sketch, which are even rarer to get hold of than the cel.
The second was a movie cel from the 1981 Sanrio project Sirius no Densetsu (known here as "The Sea Prince and the Fire Child"). The cel, showing the sea god Glaucus, had been stored with a blank sheet of rice paper. That is often unproblematic: wet it, and it peels right off. But I knew from my experience with rice-papered cels from A Tree of Palme that, even wetted, it tends to make places peel off where the trace lines and paint narrow down to a thin tip, no matter how careful you are. (Usually in the hair, but also on pointy objects of all kinds.) The cel comes from a critical scene at the end of the film where art is hard to find, and I had to go rather high (for me) to get it. And Glaucus has a surplus of hair tips, plus four horns, two pointy ears, and four pointy fingernails, any or all of which I suspected would peel off at the first opportunity. So since the paper was blank with no distracting notes or sketches, and since it was important to me that the cel was in primo condition, I let the paper be.
Leaving the sketch on also makes it easier to insert Microchamber paper in the bag with the cel, which I always do for vintage anime art like this.
Just my 50 yen.
The second was a movie cel from the 1981 Sanrio project Sirius no Densetsu (known here as "The Sea Prince and the Fire Child"). The cel, showing the sea god Glaucus, had been stored with a blank sheet of rice paper. That is often unproblematic: wet it, and it peels right off. But I knew from my experience with rice-papered cels from A Tree of Palme that, even wetted, it tends to make places peel off where the trace lines and paint narrow down to a thin tip, no matter how careful you are. (Usually in the hair, but also on pointy objects of all kinds.) The cel comes from a critical scene at the end of the film where art is hard to find, and I had to go rather high (for me) to get it. And Glaucus has a surplus of hair tips, plus four horns, two pointy ears, and four pointy fingernails, any or all of which I suspected would peel off at the first opportunity. So since the paper was blank with no distracting notes or sketches, and since it was important to me that the cel was in primo condition, I let the paper be.
Leaving the sketch on also makes it easier to insert Microchamber paper in the bag with the cel, which I always do for vintage anime art like this.
Just my 50 yen.
Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
TRY THIS AT YOUR OWN RISK
I have had 100% success with the artificial equivalent to the open window method. I start with a cutting board inside a soft T-Shirt. I put it on the bathroom floor, flatten out the T-shirt and put the cel on top with the paper up.
Then I use a cold mister. I turn it on, close the door and let it run for 30 minutes or so. You have to play with position and mist level a bit, though, because you do NOT want the paper too wet. I needs to feel very slighly damp and cool to the touch. Nothing more. Too much water and the paper wrinkles up more than need be (more on flattening them later).
As far as speed and wrinkles go, sometimes the sketch releases very quickly. Easy fast releases leave little to no wrinkling. But, if the cel is really stuck, it may need a multi-day mist. In that case be ready for a fair amount of wrinking. It's just what the paper they used does. The more water, the more time damp, the more wrinking. But, it's better than a ripped, damaged, or "I'll just leave it stuck" cel. I want to see the art!![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/21.gif)
Testing. I highly recommend that you just use some low-grade lined paper to try the technique on. The kind they give to first graders. Check it every few minutes. Make sure it is not too wet. Barely damp and cool is the goal.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... 0zeGxReGNB
As misting continues, it will slowly loosen the paint's grip. Check in fairly often and gently (gently!) give a slight lift up on the paper and give it the slightest wiggle. I generally do this from the side that is the least stuck (I don't know if that makes any difference, but it feels like the right way to do it). If you are lifting up the cell when you do this, you are trying too hard. We're talking really gentle and patience is key. Sometimes a section of the paper just magically lifts right off as though it were never stuck. Other times, you hear the slightest "pop, pop, pop" as the paint releases its grip. Other times... nothing. Do more misting. My first couple of checks are at about 10 minutes to be sure there aren't any surprises in terms of wetness. Then, I increase it to 30 minute intervals or longer depending on the situation. If you do this right, the paper will come usually off very cleanly, but you might get the tiniest bit of paper residue left on the paint in a few places (and that has only been on the horribly stuck sketches for me). If you take your time, there will be zero noticeable damage to the paper after it comes off. Any tiny bits that remained on the cell won't be noticeable at all. BUT, if you pull too soon or two hard, you will rip off little pieces. The paper is fragile when damp and will rip easily if you push things. Patience....
Another technique I use is the bic pen technique. I lift up one side of the paper and gently (gently!) slide a bic pen (without the cap) in as far as it will go between the paper and the cel and then let the sketch drape back down over the pen. This provides the slightest bit of tension as the misting continues (literally just the weight of the paper on one side of the pen levering up the paper on the other side of the pen). It also opens up the area between the cel and paint to the mist.
The shortest time it has taken to release cels is about 1/2 hour -- they pretty much just fell right off with a little misting. The longest has been 48 hours of continuous misting. For multi-day mists, I usually turn off the mister at night and start again in the morning, but on really dry days or for really stuck cels, I leave it on on the lowest setting and then turn it up again in the morning when I can check on it properly. It all depends on how the process has been going, how dry the air is, etc.
Back to wrinkling. The process, by definition, imparts water into the paper and that creates minor to significant wrinkles - even the slightest amount of dampness will. So, when I am done, I put the paper down (without the cel on it, of course
) on the same T-shirt covered cutting board and lay a pillow case over it. I then gently iron over the pillow case with a clothes iron on a very low heat. While the sketch is still warm, I put another cutting board ton top of the pillow case and add some weight (a gallon of water works great), and leave it overnight. This doesn't take out all of the wrinkles, but it helps. I let the first sketch I separated this way just dry on its own and it wrinkled very badly as it dried. So, the next time I tried this method and have stuck to it ever since. And, the sketches flatten out even more in your portfolio book.
WARNING: I have never tried this technique and given up in the middle. My guess is that when the douga dries, you would have a very wrinkled sketch stuck to your cel. Yech. So, use common sense. Don't try this on that $3,000 cel from Kiki's Delivery service.
This picture is the very worst one I ever did and I took it right after I was done. The light is also at the perfect angle to really show the wrinkles. It was stuck like glue over the whole thing and was pretty wrinkled. Ironing helped and it flattened out a lot more as time went on inside its portfolio book. In lighting that doesn't exaggerate the wrinkles, it looks fantastic and I love being able to see the sketch. Most of mine have come off much easier.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... 0zeGxReGNB
I hope this helps![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/21.gif)
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/21.gif)
I have had 100% success with the artificial equivalent to the open window method. I start with a cutting board inside a soft T-Shirt. I put it on the bathroom floor, flatten out the T-shirt and put the cel on top with the paper up.
Then I use a cold mister. I turn it on, close the door and let it run for 30 minutes or so. You have to play with position and mist level a bit, though, because you do NOT want the paper too wet. I needs to feel very slighly damp and cool to the touch. Nothing more. Too much water and the paper wrinkles up more than need be (more on flattening them later).
As far as speed and wrinkles go, sometimes the sketch releases very quickly. Easy fast releases leave little to no wrinkling. But, if the cel is really stuck, it may need a multi-day mist. In that case be ready for a fair amount of wrinking. It's just what the paper they used does. The more water, the more time damp, the more wrinking. But, it's better than a ripped, damaged, or "I'll just leave it stuck" cel. I want to see the art!
![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/21.gif)
Testing. I highly recommend that you just use some low-grade lined paper to try the technique on. The kind they give to first graders. Check it every few minutes. Make sure it is not too wet. Barely damp and cool is the goal.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... 0zeGxReGNB
As misting continues, it will slowly loosen the paint's grip. Check in fairly often and gently (gently!) give a slight lift up on the paper and give it the slightest wiggle. I generally do this from the side that is the least stuck (I don't know if that makes any difference, but it feels like the right way to do it). If you are lifting up the cell when you do this, you are trying too hard. We're talking really gentle and patience is key. Sometimes a section of the paper just magically lifts right off as though it were never stuck. Other times, you hear the slightest "pop, pop, pop" as the paint releases its grip. Other times... nothing. Do more misting. My first couple of checks are at about 10 minutes to be sure there aren't any surprises in terms of wetness. Then, I increase it to 30 minute intervals or longer depending on the situation. If you do this right, the paper will come usually off very cleanly, but you might get the tiniest bit of paper residue left on the paint in a few places (and that has only been on the horribly stuck sketches for me). If you take your time, there will be zero noticeable damage to the paper after it comes off. Any tiny bits that remained on the cell won't be noticeable at all. BUT, if you pull too soon or two hard, you will rip off little pieces. The paper is fragile when damp and will rip easily if you push things. Patience....
Another technique I use is the bic pen technique. I lift up one side of the paper and gently (gently!) slide a bic pen (without the cap) in as far as it will go between the paper and the cel and then let the sketch drape back down over the pen. This provides the slightest bit of tension as the misting continues (literally just the weight of the paper on one side of the pen levering up the paper on the other side of the pen). It also opens up the area between the cel and paint to the mist.
The shortest time it has taken to release cels is about 1/2 hour -- they pretty much just fell right off with a little misting. The longest has been 48 hours of continuous misting. For multi-day mists, I usually turn off the mister at night and start again in the morning, but on really dry days or for really stuck cels, I leave it on on the lowest setting and then turn it up again in the morning when I can check on it properly. It all depends on how the process has been going, how dry the air is, etc.
Back to wrinkling. The process, by definition, imparts water into the paper and that creates minor to significant wrinkles - even the slightest amount of dampness will. So, when I am done, I put the paper down (without the cel on it, of course
![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/21.gif)
WARNING: I have never tried this technique and given up in the middle. My guess is that when the douga dries, you would have a very wrinkled sketch stuck to your cel. Yech. So, use common sense. Don't try this on that $3,000 cel from Kiki's Delivery service.
This picture is the very worst one I ever did and I took it right after I was done. The light is also at the perfect angle to really show the wrinkles. It was stuck like glue over the whole thing and was pretty wrinkled. Ironing helped and it flattened out a lot more as time went on inside its portfolio book. In lighting that doesn't exaggerate the wrinkles, it looks fantastic and I love being able to see the sketch. Most of mine have come off much easier.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... 0zeGxReGNB
I hope this helps
![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/21.gif)
Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
Hi, does it work if I put the cel under an LED light or do I have to put it in a very dark room? My bed is right next to the window so I can't put the cel beside the window at night, I can put it there while I'm still awake but with light on.backlotanimation wrote: ↑Sun Jan 17, 2016 12:20 am***OMG DON"T*** do what is said in these posts you will destroy your production drawings. The easiest and best way to remove stuck drawings is to lay your cel face down on a clean white T-shirt turned inside out(it's softer) next to a open window at night only. the moist air is enough to release the bonded weave of the paper from the paint. Each morning lightly tug up at the edges some will come loose each day. put a pencil between the paper and cel to hold open to the next nights air and after as little as a day or up to a week the drawing WILL come free and no harm will come to your drawings. This comes from a Disney archivist who showed me a great many years ago how to do it. Some use of a mister box has been used in the past but you have to have a super fine mist for this to work and it can cost alot to make one that will not soak your drawings. Use the night air, it works the best. if you have a covered screened porch all the better to lay them out under on a table. But never leave the artwork in the heat of the day or if it's going to rain, just put it out at night time with no chance of rain. I have done this to 2000 dollar cels very safely. good luck. Roy Aka Backlotanimation
Re: removing stuck paper from a cel
Hi I just started this window night method a couple of days ago. So far I have 2 peeled right off in a few hours with no left over paper stuck to the back of cel, for others they are coming off when I peeled them slowly but with little spots of paper stuck to the back, are they suppose to work like this or did I peeled too early?
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/owsQbAD.jpg)
![Image](https://i.imgur.com/owsQbAD.jpg)