Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

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D123
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Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by D123 »

Paper was always kind of intimidating for me since all the different sketch types and terminologies so I never took the time to really absorb it X| . What I really want to do is be able to CORRECTLY tell the difference between all the sketches out there in the animation process. This is what I have so far..

Layouts are the sketches with frames around them, always no exceptions.
Like this one for example
http://spiritedaway.rubberslug.com/gall ... mID=225690

and maybe this one?
http://spiritedaway.rubberslug.com/gall ... mID=254063

I know there’s more to layouts than this but this is my most basic concept of them.

Douga are images/outlines of soon to be cels (or EXACTLY matching the scenes in the anime regardless of cg or cel animation ) these always have the sequence numbers on the top right corner (like cels) no exception.

Genga are sketches on white paper that have the sequence number randomly drawn (they are not in the top right corner as douga would be or.. they would be douga)

Shuusei genga are always on colored paper.. also known as roughs??

Genzu are really rough drawings.. not sure about much more on them.

Roughs in general I believe I’m pretty clear on

I believe this one here I have is a rough or “genzu”..
http://spiritedaway.rubberslug.com/gall ... mID=227593


Again I know there is more to the sketches than this but this is my most basic concept of telling them apart. Am I correct? Or missing something? Are there any other telling ways?
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by sensei »

You have the concepts pretty nearly correct, but it's crucial not to obsess on the terminology (which varies quite a bit from US to Japanese studios) and keep your eye on the production process that generates all these drawings for very different and specific purposes. A good general introduction to the process, by an American who worked for an anime studio in Japan is Various Positions in the Anime Industry.

A very brief summary:

1. When an anime series goes into production, the episode director (or someone under his/her direction) does a storyboard for the whole episode.

2. This becomes the basis for a series of layouts, done to a standard size and usually on pre-printed paper with the studio's logo on the bottom and a series of blanks on the top for series title, episode, and cut (individual animated series of "shots" in US terminology). Jan-Scott Frazier thinks the key animators do this job, but I don't think this is always true. Some layouts are pretty good artistically, but most are very crude, suggesting that the director, or the director's cousin who needs a job, does no more than place the characters very approximately in the frame.

3. The layouts go to the art director, who might make a more detailed drawing of the background before sending this material to the person who executes the original production watercolor. So the autograph layout usually comes taped to the back of the original matching background.

4. A photocopy of the layout goes to the episode's animation director, who makes a revision showing more precisely what the characters should look like. This is, to many collectors' eyes, the most valuable type of sketch, as it records the "moment of creation" when the basic design of the scene is worked out. It's common to call this sketch the "rough," although it's also referred to as a "layout correction." It's always done on some kind of thin colored paper (usually yellowish).

5. The copy layout and rough(s) go to the gengaman, or key animator, who creates the genga, or "foundation drawings." These are limited to just the most important moments in the cut, typically the start (A1) key, the end key, and the extreme positions of any moves that take place. This is also when the cut gets taken apart into layers, so the genga will have notations beside the character indicating (say) that the body will be on the A1 layer, the eyes on a B1 layer, and the mouth on a C1 layer, etc. There are usually a lot of notes alongside the characters explaining how this character will actually be animated.

6. The genga go back to the episode's animation director for approval. Normally, the AD takes another sheet of colored paper and traces on it the parts s/he wants revised. Sometimes, the senior artist will reject the genga and do a complete new drawing expressing what s/he wants. All these post-genga drawings are usually marked "shuusei" or "correction," and that's what collectors usually mean by that term, although I've seen animators write the word on pre-genga "layout corrections" too.

7. This whole pack of material goes to a howling mob of entry-level animators with aspirations of becoming the next Miyazaki. They trace the genga or key drawings on a sheet of white paper using a very fine pencil, then mark highlights and shadows with colored pencils, again, very precisely. Then they create a certain set of "inbetweener" images that flow together with the keys to create the image of motion. These are the douga or "moving drawings." Because they are designed to be photocopied onto the back of sheet of acetate (or, nowadays, scanned and digitally colorized), there are no comments on the sheet itself, and the sequence number is put in the upper right or lower right corner (for oversized cels) so it is not part of the image copied on the cel or scanned for colorizing.

At this point the sequence numbers change: the genga are numbed 1, 2, 3, etc., but when the inbetweeners are added, the image in (say) the genga for A3 might now be numbered A12 on the douga. (You can see all of this worked out if you get the timing sheet with the sketch pack.) So to help keep track of how the genga and douga relate to each other, each douga that matches a genga has the sequence number circled. So a cel painted from a douga with a circled sequence number is a "key cel" because that image is based on one actually drawn by a senior animator. A cel with a douga whose sequence number is not circled is an "inbetweener" designed by a junior animator working for peanuts. (But Jan Scott-Frazier observes that the senior animators looked at these douga and paid attention to the artists who did the best jobs, and so these people were more likely to get the nod to be key animators for the next project.)

So when you get a "sketch pack" for a cel-based series, it's likely to have in it a copy layout, a rough or two, a set of genga, and a set of post-genga shuusei. A sketch pack for a CGI-based series will probably have the original layout, a rough, a set of genga and post-genga shuusei, plus the complete run of douga, and, if you're lucky, the timing sheet that binds them all.

That leaves "genzu," which is just a catch-all term for any kind of practice or conceptual drawing that doesn't have a specific purpose. My impression is that these are rough drafts or what American animators call "clean-up" drawings made by an artist prior to finalizing the art in the form of a genga. As different artists have different styles and quirks, they can be very different, even within a single studio or show. Some may have the key number on them, most don't, and they can be on whatever paper happens to be around to recycle, white, colored, leftover layout stock. (Some of my xxxHolic genzu are on the back of layout stock from a different studio with which the producing studio had recently collaborated on a project.)

I enjoy getting hold of them but it's true that they can be very difficult to interpret because they usually come separated from the more formal drawings that were used in production. I think in many cases they are just the contents of an animator's trash can that the artist (or the custodian) slipped out of the building after hours. In some cases, the studios released the production art for sale to collectors, and in others they did not, so genzu are the only art you can get from some series.

As for the links you gave, this one looks to be a copy of what I'd call a "layout correction" rather than a rough or a layout. Notice that the artist wrote out the heading at the top and did not include the cut number. Toei promoted it to layout status later by stamping the series title (Sailor Moon, obviously) and the episode number on it. It is executed on Toei's standard layout stock, but it looks very odd to me.

This one looks to be a douga rather than a layout. Notice that it has the sequence number (A1) circled in the top right corner. It does look like it's been marked up after it was used to print the outline on the back of the cel, probably as a guide to the cel painter. The frames on it look to be a guide to some kind of panning effect used in filming the cut, and might have been done later as a guide to the cameraman. If this is from Sailor Moon too, keep in mind that Toei always used a layout frame with rounded corners, as seen in the other scan, rather than one with square corners.

This one looks very similar to a batch of genzu I got from Inuyasha that I now think mostly dealt with deleted scenes. In any case, it shows a very preliminary approach to the character that I'd guess was cleaned up in a following sketch and then copied onto a genga. But without having the other sketches for comparison it's hard to tell.

Hope this helps. Really the only way to get a handle on this is to collect sketch sets and then spend a couple of days puzzling over them, comparing them to each other and looking at details that show you which had to come first, then later, then last. That, and a little first-hand information from people like Frazier, will eventually make sense out of the standard process. But keep in mind that there were obviously special circumstances that affected many series and many scenes, and some of these you may never figure out unless you'd been lucky enough to be in the studio on that day.
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by Yupa »

I always love reading your detailed posts. Even though I've read about the production process a couple of times I still learned a few things. Your explanation of genzu was very interesting to me. I have quite a few roughs on the back of layout paper from different animation studios and I've always wondered why they did that. It also explains some random drawings I have which didn't seem to be a part of the anime.

I think you're right about the sketch with the handdrawn box being actually a douga from a cut with a panning effect. I also have a sketch set from a recent CGI anime where they drew that box on the back of the douga sheets to indicate what was going to be on screen. That scene had a vertical pan effect.

I know a few examples where the animation studio did not follow the general process. Some studios already divide their layouts (or layout corrections) into layers. And some ADs at IMAGIN and Gonzo like to see the douga sequence before rejecting it, drawing a few shuusei and asking for a new set of douga.
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by D123 »

I didn’t know there were roughs and then correction genga

So this for instance would be the rough
http://spiritedaway.rubberslug.com/gall ... mID=225702

and this the genga made from it
http://spiritedaway.rubberslug.com/gall ... mID=225703

and you must tell corrections by really looking at the sketches and/or they’re marked..

The gengas are done for the “key” animations only, this is very interesting! That would make sense then why an animated gif of them wouldn’t flow just right, it’s missing the inbetweeners by the junior animators.

sensei wrote:As for the links you gave, this one looks to be a copy of what I'd call a "layout correction" rather than a rough or a layout. Notice that the artist wrote out the heading at the top and did not include the cut number. Toei promoted it to layout status later by stamping the series title (Sailor Moon, obviously) and the episode number on it. It is executed on Toei's standard layout stock, but it looks very odd to me.
The layouts I will have to look into more.. this was another copy layout from another set I have
http://spiritedaway.rubberslug.com/gall ... mID=225705

and then I got this one here in the first thumb with my cel
http://spiritedaway.rubberslug.com/gall ... mID=254061

I didn’t think the second one was a layout either but it had the frame so I wanted to put to the test my theory on the frames am glad I was wrong. I was totally absent minded that the frame could have been a guide for something

sensei wrote:This one looks very similar to a batch of genzu I got from Inuyasha that I now think mostly dealt with deleted scenes. In any case, it shows a very preliminary approach to the character that I'd guess was cleaned up in a following sketch and then copied onto a genga. But without having the other sketches for comparison it's hard to tell.
I actually know the exact scene this one comes from in the show can’t remember the episode number though. I was afraid when I bought it, it could have been a fake considering how light the pencil was done and there were no numbers or any writing on it.


I want to start using the correct terminology in my gallery rather than “sketch” but I’m afraid I’ll just get it all wrong X|

Yupa wrote:I think you're right about the sketch with the handdrawn box being actually a douga from a cut with a panning effect. I also have a sketch set from a recent CGI anime where they drew that box on the back of the douga sheets to indicate what was going to be on screen. That scene had a vertical pan effect.
You know what I think that scene did pan also the one I mentioned here too..
and then I got this one here in the first thumb with my cel
http://spiritedaway.rubberslug.com/gall ... mID=254061
I have to check the episodes when I get a chance
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by Gonzai »

I always liked Keys Animation art FAQ.

http://www.fukushuu.org/cels/faqsection.php?g=c&ft=1
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by sensei »

Yeah, I learned a good half of what I know from Keys and the rest from Jan Scott-Frazier and from looking at related sketches in a sketch set for a long time until I could really see what I was looking at. But I have a serious headache from writing multiple-guess questions for a chapter on economic systems in an anthro textbook.
Q: The evils of the world were unleashed by

a. capitalism
b. Obamacare
c. celotape
d. intensive agriculturalism
So I need to rest up, have a craft beer (or two) and vote in the cel contest before getting back to this. All I'll say for now is that this sketch looks to me to be a post-genga shuusei rather than a pre-genga rough. The reason is that while it is more complete than many shuuseis, it is very boldly drawn in some parts and left blank in others. That suggests that was drawn on a piece of tracing paper on top of the genga.

Roughs can be really, really rough, and left incomplete in spots (especially if they were traced on top of the layouts). But they usually show signs of being revised and worked up from even rougher drawings. Here is a good example of a Toei rough, from their early CGI series Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne. If you had it in your hands under a strong light, you'd see that the artist began with a very faint sketch done in a light gray colored pencil, which was then worked up, with visible second thoughts and erasures, into a more finished image in graphite and red and blue pencil (for the highlights and shadows).

Another tip is that roughs usually don't have the key numbers written in. Shuuseis almost always do. More often, as in my KKJ example, they have the cut number alone. (Toei, btw, had a very distinctive system of numbering sequences by "scene" and cut, so "25-45" means "scene 25, cut 45" [in episode 34!] not "episode 25, cut 45." Most other roughs I've seen say something like "C-225" for "cut 225." So in your Black Lady sketches, the 85 is the episode number, and the 6-11B is the scene/cut number.

That said, there are still a lot of variables and oddities, and visiting my KKJ gallery reminds me that I probably need to go back and change "genzu" to "rough" in a lot of gallery entries.

I hear a big bronze bottle calling my name... :buds: ...later.
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by D123 »

Maybe I should give up :wow:
sensei wrote:Another tip is that roughs usually don't have the key numbers written in. Shuuseis almost always do. More often, as in my KKJ example, they have the cut number alone. (Toei, btw, had a very distinctive system of numbering sequences by "scene" and cut, so "25-45" means "scene 25, cut 45" [in episode 34!] not "episode 25, cut 45." Most other roughs I've seen say something like "C-225" for "cut 225." So in your Black Lady sketches, the 85 is the episode number, and the 6-11B is the scene/cut number.
I’ll keep this in mind but I guess I will stick to naming them just “sketch” since I don’t want to incorrectly label the pieces in my gallery.. maybe, maybe not


I've read Keys in the past and the link from Jan Scott-Frazier today I will read them more thoroughly when I get a chance
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by sensei »

My apologies if I'm maxing you out with information. It's a busy time for me and my brain is not working very efficiently, so I'm muddling it up and mixing essential info with trivia. Don't give up: just lay out a quiet time in a room with a flat, uncluttered surface and a good overhead light or soft daylight from a tall window.

Then take your sketches out and look at them. Just look at them. For longer than usual. At first you'll just see the character. Then little by little you start to see the artist with the pencil in his or her hand drawing the character. Not literally, like the ghost of Christmas past, but through the fine details of the sketch, like the erasures and the faint underlayer of scribbles beneath the bolder lines.

You'll start to see the how as well as the what, and that will start you seeing the sketch as a process, a road from one place to another in the production of the episode.

Put the yellow sketches over the white ones and hold them up to the light. (Most of them were done on a light table.) See where one artist changed a detail here and there and pay attention to the difference it made. Imagine why the artist (almost certainly the senior animator) needed to make that change.

Eventually the artwork will teach you what you really need to know about sketches. And the rest is just getting the jargon right. And jargon is just a convention that should clarify things, not just muddle things up and make you believe you're intelligent because the people you're talking to are confused.

Again, my apologies for confusing you. That wasn't my intention.

Sensei

(Who really got on the nerves of the Phillips Collection security guards because he kept standing in front of certain sketches and paintings for such a long time while the rest of the people strolled by, took a glance, ticked off "Saw the Van Gogh" on their to-do list and bustled on.)
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

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No, no, it’s ok! I will dig my sketches out when I get a chance and look them over :D
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by D123 »

It’s amazing, I was just really examining my scans of the sketch sets in my gallery currently and I’m really seeing the correction gengas and changes made in them. It helped I have the cel and know the scene for the one, without a screencap it will be more of a challenge for me to compare everything overall X| . Your help with corrections and roughs really did help though, Thank you sensei! :)
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by sensei »

In the last 48 hours Sensei

a. baked 20 dozen cookies, sugar, peanut butter, gingerbread, chocolate chip, chocolate chunk, and black walnut/raisin
b. helped sell a gazillion cookies to benefit the local homeless shelter
c. made a huge taco bake for the choir lunch
d. went to a dinner-dance with his notoriously anime-hating wife with a double knee replacement
e. all of the above.
Thanks, D123. Yes, I agree that comparing sketches with screencaps can be very instructive. Especially the shuuseis, which make some very subtle changes that often change the impact of a character's expression. And sometimes not-so-subtle. I'm often surprised to see the earlier version, so completely different it is from the image I know from the episode.

One key image of Suiseiseki from Rozen Maiden went from outraged to rabid to disgusted to shocked to deeply saddened in the various sketches. And if you screen the cut, all you see is the deep sadness, so it actually adds a lot to the impact of the moment to see how the creators dithered over what the character's dominant emotion would be. Knowing her personality, I could see how every one of these options was a realistic possibility, so the animators' final choice is a strong one. (I kinda wish they'd chosen "rabid," though, as I love Sui's mad-dog ... er, mad-doll moments.)

Not having the screen cap is a handicap. But you can still see the extent to which each artist contributed something to the overall image as it went forward to the final image on the screen.

Sorry again for going overboard with the details. The Toei fashion of designating cuts is very distinctive and unusual for them (though Madhouse used the same system with both CCS movies). It always confuses people as it's easy to read them "episode + cut" rather than "scene + cut" [of the episode stamped on the top of the layout in huge numbers in purple ink].
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by cutiebunny »

D123 wrote:.. without a screencap it will be more of a challenge for me to compare everything overall X| .
If you need any screenshots from Sailor Moon, let me know and I can make them for you. Just let me know the episode numbers. With 200 episodes, 3 movies and specials, it'd be a lot of work for me to find certain characters/shots :hurt:
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Re: Ok I want to get this down right (paper)

Post by D123 »

cutiebunny wrote:
D123 wrote:.. without a screencap it will be more of a challenge for me to compare everything overall X| .
If you need any screenshots from Sailor Moon, let me know and I can make them for you. Just let me know the episode numbers. With 200 episodes, 3 movies and specials, it'd be a lot of work for me to find certain characters/shots :hurt:
Thank you so much cutiebunny!! :kiss I will if I need but I have most of the sm dvds, It’s Bleach though I’ve been really collecting and can’t get shots of X|
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