Buying to Resell

[cutiebunny]

I've gathered over the years of reading posts on this board and speaking to other collectors that the practice of buying artwork from Japanese sellers solely for the purpose of reselling it overseas is a detestable practice. My question is, when is a new item no longer considered 'new' and becomes ok to resell? For example, if I purchase a cel on Yahoo Japan a month ago, and then decide to resell that, would that be considered as buying to resell? How about a cel purchased two months ago? Six months? A year?

How much time, do you feel, is necessary for an item to be accepted as part of a collector's collection and therefore not a quick flip purchase? Or does it simply boil down to the owner's intent at the time of purchase? For example, let's say a car accident left me needing funds for car repairs. If I purchased an item to resell to help fund these repairs, would that make the practice justifiable? What if I decided to resell an item that I had won prior to the accident even though my original intent was to add that to my collection? How would that be perceived?

[teggacat]

I've gathered over the years of reading posts on this board and speaking to other collectors that the practice of buying artwork from Japanese sellers solely for the purpose of reselling it overseas is a detestable practice. My question is, when is a new item no longer considered 'new' and becomes ok to resell? For example, if I purchase a cel on Yahoo Japan a month ago, and then decide to resell that, would that be considered as buying to resell? How about a cel purchased two months ago? Six months? A year?

How much time, do you feel, is necessary for an item to be accepted as part of a collector's collection and therefore not a quick flip purchase? Or does it simply boil down to the owner's intent at the time of purchase? For example, let's say a car accident left me needing funds for car repairs. If I purchased an item to resell to help fund these repairs, would that make the practice justifiable? What if I decided to resell an item that I had won prior to the accident even though my original intent was to add that to my collection? How would that be perceived?

gosh dont get so hung up over what others think
buying with the intent to instantly resell is never a good idea, especially in the market today
when most regular folks are more concerned with making the mortgage payment or even just
filling the gas tank to get to work-if you're lucky enough ton have a job. I never buy cel with the intent
"as soon as this baby is in my hands-off to market!" I buy cels to add to my personal collection, however, things can
change, even daily in this world now. Sometimes, waiting to do the ship request from Japan, a chunk of time passes,
would rather have cash than a particular cel you've been waiting to ship, or, even sometimes a cel more
desirable comes up so said cel has to go to move forward to more desired cel. I wish we all had endless money
to just collect away but it just does not work out that way for most of us. Its all in how much said cel means to
said collector at the moment. I have countless cels that I never ever would consider selling, but even that elite
group changes as I explore other series and cels out there.
It just a matter of where you are at at that particular moment, if i worried about what eveyone thought of my
collecting practices, well, needless to say, I dont.
But buying just to turn a quick buck rarely works out that well, more often you loose.
Hey, and Thanks CB for this thinking topic, its been far to quiet here today.

[JWR]

Well if one wants to take this to the extreams, buying to resell is what every cel dealer does.

What i guess strikes a nerve is that most who frequent YJ auctions may know what the item that was bid on sold for and then will know the amount the person reselling an item they won and for what amount of a profit they are attempting to make.

The question I ask is would you be equally upset at the dealer selling on YJ if you knew their profit margin?

I will give you an example but keep the names out of it.

A few years ago at AX an dealer I know brought in a Hanken Cel from Ranma 1/2 I liked but decided that the asking price of $3k was more than I thought it was worth. Later in the year that same Hanken appeared on YJ being listed by another dealer with a listed price of 150,000 Yen. It did not sell for quite a while and later I found out that dealer sold it to a USA cel dealer for $600.00 US. I am sure that dealer in Japan made something on the deal.

Things are only worth what someone is willing to pay, people are free to ask what ever price they want but they risk not selling if they over charge but it only takes one to decide they are willing to pay that amount. If no one buys then they have the choice to lower the price till it sells or keep it.

[graymouser]

I tend to exclude dealers since they tend to have sources other than YJ. Their connections enable them to find items that collectors would not otherwise have access to. I have no problem with paying them so they turn a profit. After all, that is what keeps them in business and enables them to continue to find those hidden gems. The only times I have found myself competing on YJ against dealers has been when they were going after items for their personal collections.

I can also understand collectors who get angry about competing on YJ for something only to find it being resold for an even higher price on ebay shortly afterwards. I think most people understand that life happens and sometimes a collector needs to sell something they just bought. I think the resentment tends to grow when a collector does this on a regular basis. I guess I view it not so much as how long has it been since they bought the cel/sketch, but HOW OFTEN they are turning items around. It is possible that the collector is being incredibly irresponsible for repeatedly buying when they cannot afford to do so (no cushion in their budget). It is also possible that the collector has a short attention span as far as interest in a particular show goes. Some collectors buy sets of items when they only want to keep one of them. Still, many times people who repeatedly resell within a short period of time are attempting to make a profit off of newer collectors who do not know how to access YJ. It would be hard to set a time frame for what I consider a short period of them. If forced give a number I think it would be fair to say anything around 3-4 months or less is a short time. My reasoning is that at least 2 of the main deputy serves allow storage for 3 months. Up until the 3 month mark (plus shipping time) it is possible for a collector to not have the item in hand for resale.

[Keropi]

For me when I was collecting it was mainly about intent. If they were getting things mainly to resell or very often to resell I had some resentment over it. That was mostly because some of the cheap deals I was hoping to get were no longer available. What they were doing became less annoying over time because I eventually got what I wanted anyway. It just came at a higher price.

And yeah, some of those people who had to keep selling off ALL their stuff were kind of annoying to me. It was the pattern of:

1. Buy the cels
2. Post about how happy they were to have the cels. Talk about how amazing they were.
3. Post about how they had to sell off ALL their cels
4. Buy more cels
5. Talk about how ecstatic they were to have those cels. It was their dream to have them.
6. A few months later. Sell ALL their cels off due to a stated emergency
7. Buy more cels
8. Post about how thrilled they were to have those cels.
9. A couple months later sell off ALL their cels
10. Buy more cels

Do this about 7-10 more times over several years time and it got to be pretty tiring. Partial selloffs don't feel the same to me as complete selloffs. I'm not sure what bothered me so much about those posts. I guess it's just the feeling I got that I KNEW they wouldn''t have those cels for very long. It felt like a sad situation. I think if they hadn't posted about how happy they were to have the cels it wouldn't have bothered me as much.

[ReiTheJelly]

I think the resentment tends to grow when a collector does this on a regular basis.

Yes. It's when someone is consistently out-competing other non-Japanese bidders...only to turn around and resell it for a massively exorbitant mark-up. If no one else was bidding, fine. But when you are outbidding your own potential customers...negative feelings will arise.

[Sui Kune]

One thing that I find really gross personally is when someone here puts some cels up for sale from their personal collection, and someone buys purely to resell on eBay. I find it really detestable because oftentimes the choice to sell from your collection is a very difficult one, and the collector would probably much rather the cel they had to let go went to a good home rather than destined to sit on eBay with a huge markup for ages. It also really seems like taking advantage of the collector and their situation. (Also, to clarify, the difference between this and, say, a dealer getting a tip on a private collector in Japan, cels up for offer here will be seen by collectors who may want them. A dealer going to a private collection in-person and being the only one to know about it on the other hand would be the only way the cels could find their way to new loving homes.)

Even in a Pokemon toy collecting community I've been a part of for years that practice is really frowned upon (and it's obvious when it's buy to flip rather than something came up and they had to weed too) and quickly skeeves out fellow collectors.

[GuyvarIII]

I’ve benefited when collectors buy large sets and immediately sell off the ones they don’t want. Even if I was the one outbid, if they sell the items I wanted at the right price, it feels like a win for everyone.

And, I don’t think buying on Yahoo Japan to resell is really an evil practice.
But, it doesn’t seem like a very sound business proposition, at least for US collectors who use deputy services.

Example:

Let’s say, you buy a sketch set for 5000yen through a deputy service.

The service gives you a conversion rate of 75yen to every 1USD.
The converted total for your win is 66.67USD.

You’re charged a 7USD fee and 15USD shipping.
Your total is 88.67USD.

If you don’t buy any other items from the deputy before you ship, the shipping to you is about another 15USD. Your final total outlay is 103.67USD.

You’re going to sell the set.
You invested time, money, and effort into finding the set and having it sent from Japan.
Everyone is entitled to try and make a buck, you want a modest profit, say 25%.
Your price to sell the set is 138.27USD. Let’s see how much it will be if you just try and make cost from here on.

You don’t want to haggle about S/H (or possibly pay more fees), so you add $11 and say “Free Shipping in the US!” since the USPS Priority Mail flat rate medium size is $10.85 if you buy postage online, and the boxes are gratis (we’ll assume NO cost for packing materials or the time to pack). Insurance would be extra, of course.
The new selling price would be $149.27.

You’d think to yourself: “no one’s going to pay that,” but there are 3 really great drawings in that set.
You spilt the set into three.
You have three incomplete sets priced at $46.09. With $11 shipping each, that’s $57.09 ( you might offer a discount if they buy more than one).

Ebay is no charity, let’s budget $6.00 per, taking us to $63.09...where we reach the Paypal fees of 2.9% +$0.30 per item; to cover it say $65.28 or $65.50.

You’d now have three listings for $65.50 each from one single 5000yen YJ auction. Everyone who saw the 5000yen auction hates you. And, if everything goes well, and you sell all three…you’ve made less than 35 bucks.

However, it could be worse. It could be a single 5000yen cel.
Then, you’d have to charge $170 to make close to $35.
__________________________________________


Seems to me, the only way you could make any money is if you purchased items dirt cheap, which would mean staying away from any and all bidding wars against other collectors. Not to mention the fact, bemoaned in this very forum, that the number of cels from the more popular shows to most American collectors has dwindled on YJ.

[teggacat]

I’ve benefited when collectors buy large sets and immediately sell off the ones they don’t want. Even if I was the one outbid, if they sell the items I wanted at the right price, it feels like a win for everyone.

well stated GuyverIII

[Promethium]

only to turn around and resell it for a massively exorbitant mark-up.

Speaking of exorbitant mark-ups...

http://ekizo.mandarake.co.jp/auc/itemIn ... 6763000682

http://page10.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/m98814028

[Drac of the Sharp Smiles]

For me when I was collecting it was mainly about intent.

(*snip*)

And yeah, some of those people who had to keep selling off ALL their stuff were kind of annoying to me. It was the pattern of

THIS. Though, I would add to this the people that caw and crow about getting some prize cel and go on about how they adore it more than any other, etc, etc, but then they're selling it 3-6 weeks later because they "absolutely have to" to fund an "amazing wishlist" cel purchase. By the way, they're "accepting serious offers only" (I utterly detest this phrase from people trying to sell) and they want huge amounts more than they paid for it because (insert sarcasm here) it's so terribly dear to their heart after a couple weeks. (/sarcasm) Rinse and repeat when they get the new cel.

I don't expect for people to never ever sell cels and treat them like they've adopted a child, but there are things you can do which WILL tick off your fellow collectors. Fickle people (buy, rejoice the win, then immediately sell to buy "better", repeat) or irresponsible/chronic overspenders (buy, rejoice the win, immediately sell to buy groceries/gas/pay mortgage, buy again as soon as a paycheck is in their hand) or attention mongers (buy anything currently hot, caw and crow about it until the next hot thing comes out, then dump it for that)...... these people are going to inevitably tick off collectors who are in the hobby for the long haul. Sometimes, it honestly doesn't even matter at what the item is priced. Sometimes the irritation is that a cel you tried to get, which you would stll be keeping if you had gotten it, is being tossed aside by the person who did win. How many times, when we lose a cel, do we say: "I guess they really wanted it more than I did." Obviously, the person with the most cash ISN'T necessarily the one who really wants it more, but that's still a sentiment that some (many? ^_~) of us feel, even though we know it's not true.

I think some good points have been brought up for acceptable situations that shouldn't tick off people. It was a perfect example that frequently people who buy a big lots of cels or sketches are only after one or two pieces in the lot. Why keep the ones they don't want? Reselling leftovers from lots is perfectly understandable. Another good example would be a rare occasion (I've never had it happen, but can understand the position) that a cel might arrive and it's not what was expected.... why keep it, if it's a disappointment for some reason when someone else would love it?

One thing that I find really gross personally is when someone here puts some cels up for sale from their personal collection, and someone buys purely to resell on eBay. I find it really detestable because oftentimes the choice to sell from your collection is a very difficult one, and the collector would probably much rather the cel they had to let go went to a good home rather than destined to sit on eBay with a huge markup for ages.

I think this makes people angry, and it really DOES make me angry, because it breeds distrust among collectors. A collector in the position of being offered money for things they would have kept otherwise, now has the dilemma of "is this person REALLY shopping for themselves and should I accept an on-par offer for the piece?", versus "is this person trying to get a cheap price to flip it back onto auction for a bigger profit?" Do you force the person shopping for themselves to pay an obnoxiously exorbitant premium just to prove that they're really going to keep it, since there's no way they could possibly resell it for more? Mind you, this will thus drive up prices over time, if they DO try to sell something much later because they'll want to get at least what they paid when selling..... which turns around and hurts YOU, as a collector, in the end. On top of that, I really don't think any REAL collector likes to bilk a fellow collector for all they're worth just because the person really really likes something.

The bottom line is, yes, to some extent you shouldn't get hung up over what others think. However, never forget that your actions WILL have consequences in that it will change how people see you. Those of us who have been around here a while have recognized and KNOW who are the "flakes" in the crowd. If you're obviously not a flake in the long run, you're not going to be vilified for needing to make a weird resale. Never fear: People can tell the difference! ^_^


Really excellent topic. It's interesting to hear people's views on this!

Many Sharp Smiles,
--Drac

[Gonzai]

I don't bid on YHJ, Mandarake or eBay for that matter, so I really don't pay
much attention to these sort of things. Also, all is fair in love and cel collecting,
I suppose, so I really don't think much about it. I do remember in the past,
though, that Baylor and I would joke about a certain collector posting that they
won a huge wishlist. If it was something that one of us wanted, the other would
always make the comment "Don't worry, they will have it up for sale in a few
months.

The one thing that always used to bug me, was when someone would win a
sketch set, or buy a sketch set from one of the cel dealers, just to break it
down and sell it one sketch at a time. OMG - that was my big pet peeve.
Especially if it was something I really wanted. I refuse to sell only one
sketch of a set. I could never understand breaking up sets. Finally I
realized that it wasn't worth getting mad about, and now I just don't
care what people do with what they get, cause frankly, life is too short
to let trivial things like that upset me.

[Drac of the Sharp Smiles]

The one thing that always used to bug me, was when someone would win a
sketch set, or buy a sketch set from one of the cel dealers, just to break it
down and sell it one sketch at a time. OMG - that was my big pet peeve.
Especially if it was something I really wanted. I refuse to sell only one
sketch of a set. I could never understand breaking up sets.

You know, I still hate seeing this happen. When I have a complete sketch set, I don't break the set either, but I admit what I view as "complete" is more flexible than what other people think. I view the genga pages of a cut of sketches as related to, but separate from, the douga pages. I will occasionally sell douga when I get a set containing both the genga and douga of a cut, especially if the douga set is very large... HOWEVER... I wouldn't sell the individual douga pages (or individual genga pages) separately from each other when I possess them together.

Actually, for one of my genga sets, I have all but one page and a collector here on Anime Beta has that page. Maybe someday there will be an opportunity to discuss reuniting it with the rest of the set, though I've never said anything yet. Until then, I'm not too bothered, since they seem fond of it. ^_^

Many Sharp Smiles,
--Drac

[genomexec]

Honestly, I have never understood the stigma about reselling. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

[Rekka Alexiel]

Honestly, I have never understood the stigma about reselling. It just doesn't make any sense at all.

I think the stigma lies in where the heart is, whether it's with the actual art or with the aim to make a buck. There have been a couple times in the past where I've seen something I really liked and wanted to get it but missed out for whatever reason... and then saw whoever bought it resell within a few short days-weeks at a much higher price. To me when I see something like that, I feel like they could care less about the artwork and more about the money.

Then again, I have participated in this very thing years ago when I saw an item I *knew* was special and bought it for very cheap to resell. xP Whatever profit I gained helped me finance my own gallery at the time. Whoever purchased the item from me was happy, and I was happy to be able to obtain some really great cels that I collect from that profit.

So I guess, in this regard, I can see both sides of the issue. I think as long as the person doesn't loose sight of the heart of collecting and doesn't get tied up with the prospect of making money, maybe it's all good.