Cel movement...with layer cels

For the n00bs of cel collecting and production art . . . and for some of us old-timers, too. Post your questions on anything that puzzles you.
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Lain
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Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Lain »

Hi
And i am just wondering if this cel (link added below for viewing)
Would it be the only cel that was used in the approximate 4 second sequence?
And
With would the production team have used (3) different cel's over the top of the face cel to just change the motion of the mouth?
I'd love to know :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/serial_exp ... 157356193/
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Rekka Alexiel »

Typically mouth movements like that are done on a separate layer. So your main image of the character that doesn't change is on the bottom A layer and then the animated mouth layers would be on the B layer above, just for one example.
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by sensei »

Well, not being a Lain collector (and at these YHJ starting prices unlikely to start, even though I know it's a major classic), here's my 500 yen.

The cel has got layers of tape across the top in two places. That makes it likely that the item has two layers: one, as you intuit, is the mouth layer and the other is the character either with closed mouth or (more likely) no mouth. So, yes, the sequence would likely have used a single A1 END partial layer of the character's face and three B layers for the different mouth shapes, and alternated them under the camera to lip-synch the dialog. (Actually, as I understand, in anime, the seiyuu perform to the finished footage, matching their words to the animated lip motion. That's the opposite of the normal Disney procedure, where the voice actors cut their dialogue like a movie drama, then the animators work to match that.)

But one thing that bothers me is that the seller has put a sheet of paper under part of the cel, up to the cut number (16) but for no particular reason leaves the sequence numbers in darkness at the top right. Maybe all you'd see is a jumble of letters and numbers, and the seller thought that was messy. But as a collector I like to see that the sequence numbers are there and "look right." Actually, if you save the dealer's image and brighten it dramatically, you can see something up in the corner, but not distinctly enough to read.

The cut number is how most studios number the scenes: most TV episodes have around 280-320 cuts, and most studios just number these in one sequence from start to finish. So a cel from cut 16 would come from close to the beginning of whichever episode it appears in. Some studios are good about putting that on the top of cels (Pierrot especially) but most times it's put just on the cels on the top of the stack and left off the rest. This being a short set, it probably was put on the A1 END. It shows up a little to the left of the sequence numbers, inside the oblong registration hole on the right.

If the cut number makes sense (that is, you've found the image in the show and it does appear early in the episode), then that's a good sign.

Pity that the seller's description is so sparce. All I get from translations is that the douga doesn't come with it.
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Lain
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Lain »

Hi
Sensei i have added this link /video- of the Episode with the cel sequence.
I hope it helps the (16) number.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/serial_exp ... hotostream
And thanks for all the clues to how the cel is made.
It got me thinking when u said Sensei-"The cel has got layers of tape across the top in two places. That makes it likely that the item has two layers: one, as you intuit, is the mouth layer and the other is the character either with closed mouth or (more likely) no mouth. So, yes, the sequence would likely have used a single A1 END"-
I couldn't work out why the face has the open mouth on the original Cel , and after reading your comment it made sense to me for the A- Cel to start with no mouth. For the two B- layer cels of the mouth. Right? But i am not an expert
I want to bid but i think i will have to ask the seller if there is a Cut number in the darkened area :D (Which actually is just the darkened area i think is the original background in the Anime) which i think is included in the auction? You will notice in the video.
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Rekka Alexiel »

Watching the video, it's definitely Cut 16. You can totally count them! :D
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Lain
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Lain »

Rekka Alexiel wrote:Watching the video, it's definitely Cut 16. You can totally count them! :D
Rekka Aleiel :)
I tried counting the cels from the start of the episode?
I am trying to figure out .. Would the Cut (16) be the sixteenth cel in the stack used from the start of the Episode?
Thank you
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Rekka Alexiel »

I believe every time the camera changes, that marks a new cut. Imagine cuts are segments of a scene which include multiple cels. The way animators make shows is per cut and when each one is finished, they put them in an envelope marked with the cut number. That's how everything stays nice and orderly and ready for filming. So, for example. the envelope for Cut 16 would have that A1End of the character plus the matching B mouth layers. That's it. The next frame would be Cut 17. :)
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Lain
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Lain »

Rekka Alexiel wrote:I believe every time the camera changes, that marks a new cut. Imagine cuts are segments of a scene which include multiple cels. The way animators make shows is per cut and when each one is finished, they put them in an envelope marked with the cut number. That's how everything stays nice and orderly and ready for filming. So, for example. the envelope for Cut 16 would have that A1End of the character plus the matching B mouth layers. That's it. The next frame would be Cut 17. :)
Yay :cheers i got it 16 wow! That is sweet Thanks for that kool info :D
Last edited by Lain on Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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And say hi to my mod happy eggy bunny :)
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by sensei »

@ Rakka Alexiel: /no1

@ Lain: You're welcome. I can see where the numbers are when I "lightblast" the dealer's image but can't read them. From everything else, however, it's got to be something like a jumble of A1 END and B1, B2, or B3.

Studios do the mouth layers different ways. Some have the closed mouth on the A1 layer and add the B layers when dialog is needed. But adding a cel layer subtly changes the color of the layer under, so you get a better result if you leave the mouth off the A layer and have it just on the B layer.

Good luck :box1: if you go for the auction!
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Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by KuroiTsubasa4 »

Before you bid I just wanted to let you know that there will be a nice cel of lain in the next mandarake bwa. The magazine was out early so I picked it up yesterday. So if you like lain better you might wanna save up instead :)
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Lain
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Lain »

sensei wrote:@ Rakka Alexiel: /no1

@ Lain: You're welcome. I can see where the numbers are when I "lightblast" the dealer's image but can't read them. From everything else, however, it's got to be something like a jumble of A1 END and B1, B2, or B3.

Studios do the mouth layers different ways. Some have the closed mouth on the A1 layer and add the B layers when dialog is needed. But adding a cel layer subtly changes the color of the layer under, so you get a better result if you leave the mouth off the A layer and have it just on the B layer.

Good luck :box1: if you go for the auction!
@ Sensei i see what you mean by the A-1 face having no mouth and for B-1,2,3 layers mouth with subtle changes , that makes it nice and clean..
I am now unsure that there could be more A cels... :| ?
So if it's got A-1 (End) written Would that mean it's the only A cel in the sequence?
* I have asked the seller- What the 'sequence number' is in the right hand corner i hope i get a reply.
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I am slowly getting around to adding my lain merchandise to my flickr page and lain cel's (^.^) i own 1
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/serial_experiments_lain/ Image
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Lain
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Lain »

KuroiTsubasa4 wrote:Before you bid I just wanted to let you know that there will be a nice cel of lain in the next mandarake bwa. The magazine was out early so I picked it up yesterday. So if you like lain better you might wanna save up instead :)
@ KuroiTsubasa4 thanks for this information it sounds very interesting :o
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My Serial Experiments Lain Page.
I am slowly getting around to adding my lain merchandise to my flickr page and lain cel's (^.^) i own 1
And say hi to my mod happy eggy bunny :)
http://animelife.rubberslug.com/gallery/home.asp
http://www.flickr.com/photos/serial_experiments_lain/ Image
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Lain
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by Lain »

I have been waiting for this :elephant AMAZING Mika cel .
I also purchased two other 'lain' cels through my contact in Japan :-)
And now i am happy to say on viewing this Awesome cel in person i am so excited to find that there are (two cels.)
And the original background which is quiet basic but so very kool with the original tape marks on the back of the thick paper. :D
First cel- Is Mika's face which is A1 E (End)
and
second cel- Is Mika's mouth with 3 movements and i have B3 E (and it is stuck on the mouth area so i was very careful when handling this little jem :P
This is a Brilliant find and as i new 'lain' fan and i am so very lucky! :-J

Please view my images showing the cel numbers and letters
http://www.flickr.com/photos/serial_exp ... 157356193/
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My Serial Experiments Lain Page.
I am slowly getting around to adding my lain merchandise to my flickr page and lain cel's (^.^) i own 1
And say hi to my mod happy eggy bunny :)
http://animelife.rubberslug.com/gallery/home.asp
http://www.flickr.com/photos/serial_experiments_lain/ Image
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by sensei »

Congratulations! I'm happy the new cel was everything you hoped it would be. :yay
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Re: Cel movement...with layer cels

Post by BuraddoRun »

I second that Congratulations! It's a really cool thing to get a cel you've really wanted from your favorite anime. Enjoy it and good luck with the rest of your Lain cel hunting!
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