What do I have here? (Cel/Genga/Douga questions)

[Ichigos]

I've been collecting since June 2013 but I still don't think I can differentiate between gengas and dougas. Or at least I'm not 100 percent sure on what I have. I'll attach some images below. My questions will be above each image. Bolded font to see it better since the images are huge lol. Messy post is messy. :/

If I had to guess.. I would say that this is a genga? Not sure. I don't understand why there is a box around him. I'm also curious to why it is circled "A1" but also "B3" below it.

The box on the first one might be throwing me off but the second one looks more like a douga to me. They are probably both dougas but I really don't know.


This one looks like a genga to me but again I'm not sure. Why does this have three different colours around the box?


Rough genga?


Douga?

Genga


A rough of a genga?


From what I understand roughs are drawn on yellow, light pink, or different coloured paper. Is this always the rough of a genga?

Also what is a "dead genga"? I have seen these types of descriptions on prod art auctions before. Is this just something that was never used in the final animation?

I also bought a Sailor Moon cel with SM and Chibi Moon totally blacked out (it came in an auction I won). Was this used for shading or in a scene where they might have been totally black then reappeared? Like a fade in effect?

It's late right now so I apologize for any errors in my writing. lmao. Thanks!

[Jadeduo]

There have been numerous posts about this! But it can't ever hurt to be reiterated and a lot of the time it depends on the show/studio how things are broken down. But from what I understand and everyone feel free to correct me at any point.

Both Zoisites are final gengas that are ready to be turned into dougas which is the finished sketch approved with the cel number at the top which is essentially photocopied onto the acetate. The boxes are actually camera/shooting instructions so if you go watch the episode this is from it will help you understand what the final instructions were.

So the tuxie Nephrites the top one is a genga and the partial yellow is a correction most likely done by a senior animator. To correct the matching genga, notice both sequence #s are the same.

The next 2 I am not sure if the sequence number is it at the top right corner than It is most likely a finished douga.

The bottom nephrite is a rough genga no sequence numbers yet just a rough to start and then flesh out the rest of the movement.

I can't say I've ever heard the term dead genga before...

As for the color of paper dougas Are basically only ever going to be white, but corrections and gengas are done in a rainbow of colors including white. It just depends on the studio. I would be interested in seeing that moon and Chibi moon sketch also IDing the episode could help explain what that was done on the sketch.

Jadeduo

[sensei]

First sketch: genga.
Second sketch: genga. It is a little simpler because there is not much difference between this and the A1 image, which it looks like the artist did first (you can see signs of a faint rough version in blue pencil that the artist worked up in graphite).
Third sketch: genga. The colored lines are indications for what looks like a fairly complicated camera pan motion. The left side of the screen, I'm guessing, shows one frame in orange pencil, marked at the bottom "A." Then there is a big pan right to the blue rectangle marked "B," which brings the character's face into the frame. Finally, there's a little pan left again to the point marked "C."
Fourth sketch: shuusei (correction or revision) genga. The long tail on the circle around the number is usually an indication of this, and some animators write out a hasty version of the kanji for "shuusei." (Ikuko Itou's shorthand always looks like "T 2/3" to me.) That's the episode animation director's corrections to the key animator's genga, and is usually (as in this one) a partial limited to the details that need cleaning up.
Fifth sketch: The upper right corner would nail this one, but from what I see, it's a typical douga. The very clean lines and lack of numbering or comments are tell-tale, though I've seen some dougas (usually the A1) that have lots of indications to the cel painter of which colors to use for which part. Also sometimes mispainted parts in the cel are flagged (in red pencil) on dougas.
Sixth sketch: genga. Notice that it's been executed on top of a very preliminary rough draft, which you'd never see in a douga, which is traced from the genga.
Seventh sketch: that's a "rough" or sometimes called a "layout correction." It's the episode animation director's first effort to visualize the image in this cut, based on the layout (which is based on the storyboard and is usually pretty crude). The number on the top is the cut number. This must be from Toei, as they used a distinctive Scene + Cut system to identify shots. So this is "Scene 3, Cut 29."

In short: the order of sketches used by most studios was:

1. Storyboard
2. Layout
3. Rough or Layout Correction
4. Genga
5. Shuusei Genga
6. Douga

You've got at least one of each of the types 3-6.

Hope this helps. Thanks for asking.

[sensei]

Concerning your other questions:

Layout, gengas and dougas are always on white paper. Comments or corrections on these are (almost) always on colored paper. So if you have sketches on colored paper, they are most likely to be either the episode animation director's correction of the layout (aka the so-called "rough") or a correction ("shuusei") of the genga. You need to compare the sketches carefully to put them in order, but typically the rough is a complete image and the shuusei genga is a partial. There are some studios that had more complicated arrangements, but this info fits 90% of the series I've collected.\

"Dead genga" sounds like it might be an Engrish translation of "Tome genga," i.e., an image used without change for the whole cut. I've also seen "tome" translated "stop," but I think it can also mean "drop dead." It's the same as "A1 END" (or B1, C1, etc.)

The SM cel with the characters blacked out was a "mask" used for some kind of special effect. At times these were used behind the cels so that an intense backlighting during the camera work would not show all the pinholes inevitably left in the cel painting. Or it might have been used, as you say, for a fade or a scene in which the characters disappeared and some kind of pattern appeared in the outlines of their faces or bodies.

A lot of this can be figured out if you can place the sketch or cel in its original episode. If you view the footage that resulted, then you can often figure out what the annotations or markings signaled to the animators or the camera crew.

Good luck!

[JWR]

Also the "Box" is for a "Pan" cel. In image #1 it looks like the pan starts larger then pans in or closer. Your second one looks like it starts lager then pans in from the left.

[Ichigos]

Thank you very much for all of the information everyone!! It's really appreciated! Now I can come back here and compare if I'm unsure as I have more similar to all of these. The fifth one is a douga it's just that my scanner is small and didn't get the number at the top.

@Jadeduo - Thanks! I would show an image of the cel but it's currently stored in the US at SMJ. I like waiting my 90 day limit before I ship everything out because I know I'm going to buy more than one thing. And the images on the Yahoo Auction page have disappeared.

http://shoppingmalljapan.com/cgi-bin/de ... h188687217

This is the auction I won. I believe it was the cel labelled "C-6". *pokes description*

I also think my very last image is Kunzite & not Nephrite.

@Sensei - I'm really impressed that you knew the last one was from Toei just by looking at it. You're right! It's interesting how studios have their own way of doing things. That ordered list will also come in handy, thanks!

@JWR - I see now. Thank you!

[Jadeduo]

LOL that rough sure tripped me up!! his hair looked curlyish so I thought Nephrite, he is my favorite general, so I obviously had my goggles on ^_^ Special tip I always save a picture when I win an auction on Yahoo Japan so I can start on the pages for my gallery when I go to add them. Especially since when you use a deputy everyone tends to let it pile up for a bit till you absolutely have to ship. ^_^ I can't wait to see her, I'm sure she is lovely I am a huge fan of rough cuts, or even weird cel set ups.

Jadeduo


PS, thanks Sensei I'm glad I was not completely off the mark ^_^

[sensei]

The fact that both words end in -ga ["drawing"] makes it more confusing than in English, where the corresponding terms are "keyframes" and "clean-up drawings/inbetweeners"

Genga [原画] = "foundation drawing," or the first and most crucial images for each cut. They are drawn at the very start of the formal animating process. Drawn by key animators ("gengamen," a term that includes both sexes), they normal include the start and end positions in the cut, plus any significant poses in the middle (as when the character briefly stops and turns to one side). American animators would call these keyframes.

Douga [動画] = "moving drawing," or the ones actually used to generate the animation. So they come in at the very end of the animating process. In traditional animation, they are photocopied on the backs of the cel sheets and sent out (with instructions) to where they are painted. In CGI animation they are scanned and colorized digitally. American animators would call the sketches traced from the keyframes "clean-up drawings" and the ones added to fit them together smoothly the "inbetweeners." In Japanese terminology they are all dougas, though collectors will call some "key" dougas (i.e., clean-up drawings). They are the ones with the number circled in the upper (sometimes lower) right-hand corner.

Most translation engines will render these "Originals" and "Animations." The sketches that come with cels are almost always dougas. Gengas tend to be sold together in sketch packs with the layouts, roughs, and shuusei gengas. With CGI animation it's not unusual to get everything in one lot: layouts, roughs, gengas, shuuseis, dougas, and the timing sheet. It's fun to get a big pack of these and spend time with them and the place in the anime where they are used, and sort them out.

Sometimes you even get the heavy manila-paper cut bag in which all of the above were kept and shipped from department to department, which is interesting for the variety of stamped seals of approval left by members of the studio staff (called hanko or inkan). A few animators also sealed their rough sketches: e.g., Shouko Ikeda (Inuyasha) and Mariko Fujita (CCS, Galaxy Angel).

[Ichigos]

I would be interested in seeing that moon and Chibi moon sketch also IDing the episode could help explain what that was done on the sketch.

cellll.jpg (75.1 KiB) Viewed 1144 times

Got the cel today! I'm thinking it might be from Super S? Not sure though. If you zoom in you can see their lines clearer.

[Ichigos]

Oh this is exciting! I just found out where it came from! It was a commercial! I was going to start by going through the episodes of Super S but I'm glad I started with the commercials first. xD

celpicscreenshotsmcommercial.jpg (70.67 KiB) Viewed 1122 times

The user watermarked the video but that's ok! At least I know where it's from now!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyQcYszUN3k

Appears at 2:57. So it wasn't a fade in like I thought it might be. ^^