How do you determine the price of a cel?

For the n00bs of cel collecting and production art . . . and for some of us old-timers, too. Post your questions on anything that puzzles you.
Post Reply
User avatar
JustVan
Otaku - Fanatic
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:45 pm
Location: Osaka, Japan
Contact:

How do you determine the price of a cel?

Post by JustVan »

Obviously if there are enough of them on the market you can determine based on how much they sell for, but for rarer things, it can be more difficult as rare doesn't always translate into worth a lot if no one is collecting it. There is a specific case I'm thinking of where a cel dealer has a couple cels from an old but popular show, which I'd love to have and would pay a lot for... but I feel like even with their rarity he's charging 3-4 times what I feel they're worth. (For example, say he's selling it for $1,000 and I feel it's worth $250-350. Even being super greedy I feel like $500 is too much.) This isn't one of those eBay scalper types who buy on YJ for 1000 yen and resell for $399. It's someone who sells a lot and has a lot of cels and presumably knows the value of them. I'd love to make an offer, but even my highest bids would be super low-ball compared to the, say, $1,000 that I don't feel like they're worth...

These cels in particular have been sitting around forever. I guess I could message the guy and ask about them, but I feel like offering the equivalent of $250 on a $1,000 is just plain rude... even though I don't feel like I'm low balling, just that he is way over priced in this instance. I guess I'm just curious like.. how do people decide. If a cel from the same sequence sold for under $100, how does a dealer get away with charging, say, $450 for a sequence mate?
JustVan's Cels: Unico, Escaflowne, Ranma ½, DBZ & more.
User avatar
kizu
Kuwabarakuwabara - Oh My God!
Posts: 724
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:28 am
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: How do you determine the price of a cel?

Post by kizu »

The cel is worth whatever you're willing to pay for, but at the same time it's worth whatever he's not willing to sell to you for. What I mean by this is that although you think he's asking for a lot, it might just be his reserve price, in those instance let's say you try to do the deal and he decides not to, to him the cel is worth more and he is paying the price by keeping the risk that the cel may depreciate more (or increase in value). Of course my comments are more in line with another private collector rather than a dealer. A dealer will have a mark-up so there might be wiggle room. if you really want it you can try to offer, professional dealers should not get offended if approached correctly, after all they have reputation to take care of since it's a rather small community. I also think that if they don't reply or don't entertain you too long then I think you shouldn't be offended after all you already know it's a low ball offer even in your opinion and time is money and trying to broker a deal where there's too much of a gap is not time well spent. I don't think anyone is right or wrong here with regards to prices, you guys just probably don't value them the same way.

Over the years, I've dealt with others who wanted something from my gallery and I tell them the price. I don't have to disclose why I attach those prices for certain pieces, it can be because I overpaid and trying to recoup my cost, it could be that they've appreciated in my perception, or i'm just not inclined to sell unless I get a butt load of money because I really like them, it could just be I might not be feeling generous that day, maybe even feeling kind of mean because let's admit it, there's -those- days... Even if I'm told, well over the years it's been going down and down and down, and I should adjust my price. But the thing is I don't have to sell, I can just keep it or keep it advertised as for sale until someone with the same perception of value comes along (which maybe never). :D
User avatar
cutiebunny
Yosutebito - Hermit
Posts: 1936
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:55 pm
Location: Rockin' da Cats-bah
Contact:

Re: How do you determine the price of a cel?

Post by cutiebunny »

Some sellers are selling items on consignment for other collectors or animators, often overseas. In addition to what that person is hoping to receive, the seller has also tapped on a percentage to the price in order to make some sort of profit from selling it. Sometimes, the agreement is made prior to artwork from that series taking a nosedive, yet, the seller has vowed that they won't sell for less than the agreed amount. I ran into one seller this year who, having made an arrangement to sell, had been unable to get a hold of the owner for almost a year and thus could not ask about lowering the prices. Additionally, many of the US sellers who (somewhat) actively maintain websites are registered businesses, so if you pay with Paypal or a debit/credit card, you'll have to pay sales tax in addition to the price. I've met a couple of sellers who will sell items without charging you a sales tax if you can pay in cash. Depending on the amount you're buying, that could be a good chunk of change.

Many resellers make their bread and butter through other means, whether that be full time employment in another field or by selling non-production artwork elsewhere. When this occurs, selling becomes more of a way for them to make additional cash on the side. One particular reseller that I often frequent makes a good chunk of his income selling original artwork at conventions, and these items are given to him by the artists themselves for what I assume is a similar arrangement. Unlike the cels, these sketches often sell during the same convention. However, he religiously trudges stuffed cel binders to conventions and refuses to budge on the price. He feels that if you don't like the price, you're under no obligation to buy, and since he makes his money otherwise, he'd rather sit on cels for years than offer a discount.

I don't buy too many cels any more, but when I do, I ask how much of an attachment I have to that particular scene or character. If it's high, I'll offer a higher amount, sometimes more than what the current market will bear. I want the seller to strongly consider my offer, even if that means overpaying. However, more often than not, I just want to buy the cel because I'm a completionist, such as already having a sequence mate, and getting that particular cel is not that important. When that happens, I often offer a market value rate because, while owning it would be nice, it's not something I'd kick myself over, years down the road.
User avatar
Drac of the Sharp Smiles
Kishin - Fierce God
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:16 am

Re: How do you determine the price of a cel?

Post by Drac of the Sharp Smiles »

You've gotten some great answers here from Cutie and Kizu. Remember that it really does break down to how much the other person WANTS to sell. Kizu's point about a private collector not wanting to sell things unless it's for an obscene amount can be very valid. My standard statement is that "it doesn't make a difference what you paid for something". I often say that when people are talking about a collector trying to sell pieces, but it applies just as hard to someone trying to BUY something from a collector. There are a lot of pieces I own that you wouldn't be able to buy from me even if you offered double or more that I paid for it because I simply like them too much. I don't make my living selling my cels and sketches so I have little to no incentive to sell.

Now a business, on the other hand, did NOT buy pieces with a mind to keeping them. First, this means the emotional attachment isn't there. Though obviously many cel dealers are collectors themselves, and things can get a little muddied if they sell things from their own collection as part of their store stock, generally speaking they are buying these things with the intent to resell. This means they have more incentive to price pieces in a way attractive to buyers while still allowing their business to make money on the items. It goes without saying that a business doesn't want to sell things at a loss, HOWEVER a lot of unsold pieces means a lot of money tied up that ISN'T helping their business. So there comes a point at which a business might be willing to consider selling pieces at a loss to free up money that will allow them to try again, so to speak.

(The people Cutie mentioned, who resell pieces on the side as a way to make some extra play cash, probably fall somewhere between collector and business. While they're not really buying the pieces to keep them, they're also low on incentive to sell as long as their primary line of work is going well.)

In the end, if the pieces you're looking at are on sale from a business, I would say write to the seller and ask if they would be willing to hear a lower offer for something that is very old stock to them now. (I always ask if they're receptive to lower offers first before sending the offer.) Don't forget!! If it's really been sitting there for years, you ARE NOT the only one who thinks it's priced too high. No one ELSE has come along and liked that price enough to pay it EITHER. Maybe there is some factor in play that prevents a lower price. (Like it being a consignment or something from the dealer's own collection that was put up for sale to attract business to the site, but they're not really interested to sell.) The bottom line is, if you're really dealing with someone who is treating this like a business, the worst that can happen is they will say no. A private collector might get their panties in a knot that you don't think their cel is worth as much as they think it's worth, but a successful business owner should look at any contact from a potential customer as an opportunity for conversation. Maybe they won't sell you THAT piece for what you want, but by talking to you they might wind up making a different sale!

And don't think you're the only one who has turned this over in your head. I've ALSO got two pieces I've been looking at on a sale site that have been there for over five or six years... probably more and the time is blurring in my head. They are very beautiful, but are HUGELY, AMAZINGLY overpriced.... past what even a slavering fanatic of the series would consider paying. I've often considered writing the store about them, except I know a little about where this store got some of it's stock and I get the feeling they're consignment pieces. So I haven't. .... Yet.... LOL
User avatar
JustVan
Otaku - Fanatic
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:45 pm
Location: Osaka, Japan
Contact:

Re: How do you determine the price of a cel?

Post by JustVan »

Thanks for all of the great and insightful answers everyone. These cels are being sold by an actual dealer, so the issue with them being from a collector shouldn't apply. (Though they may be selling from their private collection I guess.) I actually just purchased a cel from them that I thought was pretty reasonably priced so once it arrived safe and sound I might shoot them an email asking about the other ones I'm interested in. I suspect they'll politely tell me to go pound sand, but I suppose asking about them won't hurt. It's always possible they don't know the price of the cels, or would be willing to sell them for less to move the stock. They have a lot of cels, so they may not even have thought about these particular ones in a while to adjust the price, or they may be on consignment and could at least tell me that.
JustVan's Cels: Unico, Escaflowne, Ranma ½, DBZ & more.
Post Reply