Anime-Beta TNG

I could use a bit of help. I'm looking at some genga drawings for sale, purportedly from the series "Azumanga Daioh: The Animation". To me they look right, and I've been able to match some of them with scenes in the show. I am not an animation collectibles expert however, and I'd like some opinion on their authenticity.

Here are a couple of them.

Azumanga Daioh
Episode 6 - [1st] Sports Fest (Osaka and Chiyo Relay Race)

NOTE: The panning directives seem to line up with the final video, from what I could tell.
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Episode 25 - Onwards, Entrace Exams! (Yomi, Tomo, and Kagura Just before taking exams.)
E25 Final production shot

NOTE: In the production shot, Yomi's glasses have the glare effect just like in the genga.
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Thanks in advance for the help.

They look authentic. The first one even has the tape burn marks that a lot of older production artwork has because studios use acidic tape. I see registration holes on the second. I would not doubt their authenticity.

Unfortunately, there isn't an authentication service out there when it comes to anime artwork. Mandarake will sometimes issue a guarantee letter, usually stating that the item in question is worth its opening bid price, but that's usually only for items sold during their Big Web Auction. The Everyday Auction stuff rarely comes with one. But for the most part, unless it's from a property that has retained its popularity decades later, anime artwork does not hold its value.

I understand about no formal authentication, as I mentioned in my intro post. I didn't mean to imply I was looking for such here. It's almost impossible to formally authenticate such things without someone originally involved dealing with it.

I actually tried something of a formal route. I got up my nerve and contacted J.C. Staff through their web form and asked them about these two genga. I tried writing in English, as I know just enough Japanese to be dangerous.

I haven't heard back. It's been well over a week. Maybe they didn't understand my question in English. Maybe they don't have time to answer, or don't care to. Maybe they don't actually know after all - it's been over 15 years.

With formal authentication such a difficulty, I think the next best thing is well educated collectors like yourself willing to provide their opinions and advice.

Thank you

I'm actually not opposed to collecting Western animation, but most of the popular series and studios get really expensive quickly. With computer animation, cels are no longer even a thing, unless the studio decides to just make some up for sale. It's kind of sad really that the old tried and true method of physical asset based animation is being lost to time and technology. I say this as someone who struggles when he tries to draw in physical media.

I know not all Japanese animation is cheap to collect. I wasn't really looking for one, but I came across a cell from Maison Ikkoku for sale on eBay BIN $1499, I think. I'm not entirely surprised-I think that was one of the really popular and famous 80's animes.

As far as value-I have a very small, motley collection of video game and anime memorabilia ( a very tiny amount of the latter). I'm not sure any of it will ever have much cash value. I like it though, and it's rather unusual to see in this part of the world.

I would agree with cutiebunny: no reason to doubt their authenticity.

It's possible that someone could put celotape on a forged sketch and put it in a hot attic for a couple of weeks and end up with a very realistically damaged artifact. I'm going to suggest that this is likely what happened with the douga that came with my challenged CCS cel that I wrote up recently. But that was a shrewd move on the forger's part: generally, if one piece of animation art is genuine, then another that was included in the same lot is also genuine. So if I accept the douga as legit, then the cel (the more valuable item in the lot) is also authentic. But in this case the argument runs counter: I know the cel is a fake, so the douga has got to be a fake too.

In your case, none of what you scan looks dubious to me: you've got a nice oversized genga with all the typical production notes on it (particularly the camera pan moves that you call attention to) and what I'd call a layout correction (or shuusei) on pretty typical thin colored paper and bearing the episode and cut numbers.

[Don't worry now about the terminology: that has to do with where the sketch falls into the production routine. Generally it's layout --> layout correction --> genga (keyframe in US terminology) --> genga correction --> douga (inbetweener).]

As cb says, the anime art collecting gig hasn't developed to the point that fakes have been a serious problem. So there's no call for an authentication service yet. Maybe in the future that will develop. But you have already done precisely what an authenticator would do: compare the sketches closely to the broadcast version of the show. If they fit (particularly in details like the glare effect on the glasses), then you have real production materials.

A long-term collector may point to cases where you might not be able to make that fit with the studio footage: stuff happens, particularly in post-production. A scene gets cut short to trim a few seconds off, so a cel/sketch that was made never appears in the show. Or a version gets rejected at the last minute then remade with new sketches or new cels. (This happened a lot with Tenshi ni Narumon.) So your attitude is a healthy one: don't worry right now about "is it authentic" or "what's it worth." Love it, learn from it, use what you've come to appreciate to increase your collection. Someday your grandkids may put it all out for the trash. No matter: it's made your life happier and far more interesting.

And, I have faith, a day will come when students of the anime "golden age" will thank the nutty enthusiasts who snatched a lot of information out of the trash and preserved it for the next generations.

I think production art is really neat. I really like the under-the-hood aspects of animation, though I admit I do sometimes feel overwhelmed by the technical terms of art generally, not just animation.

It's just so interesting to think "This drawing once sat on a desk in a studio half way around the world, and it was [probably] actually used to guide the animators to a finished product." Well, technically you still have sound, but in some respects that is almost like it's own thing.

Hi Pixel,

Glad you also like Azu. The ep6 one seems to me like a Sakurai sketch. Check whether there is some sort of (村) or (桜) in the timesheet (if there is one).
In terms of authentication, I don't even think drawing a fake sketch for Azu is worthy for fake producers. Personally, I would never worry about authentication unless it comes to super expensive Miyazaki cels or something that is veeeeeery popular among collectors.

Dc

Hello, jiangdc.

The ep6 one seems to me like a Sakurai sketch. Check whether there is some sort of (村) or (桜) in the timesheet (if there is one).

I haven't seen a time sheet.

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with Mr. Sakurai. Hold on a sec. (pulls up the English credits roll) Oh okay, Animation Director Masaaki Sakurai. That surname sounds familiar- by chance is he related to SSB director Masahiro Sakurai?

Glad you also like Azu

As for "Azu" itself-that's exactly what I call it for short, btw-I'm not exactly sure what happened. I saw this strangely titled show on Anime Network on Demand and thought "what the heck." I think my first impression may have been it was historical fiction like The Ambition of Oda Nobuna, for example. Imagine my surprise when I found out what it really was. I thought the first episode was funny. Said to myself, well it wasn't a total disaster, I'll watch another one. Then I watched another. By Episode 4 I was hooked. I didn't like everything that went on on the show, to be sure. When it was funny though, it was the funniest thing I've seen out of Japan. The comic timing was incredible.

In terms of authentication, I don't even think drawing a fake sketch for Azu is worthy for fake producers. Personally, I would never worry about authentication unless it comes to super expensive Miyazaki cels or something that is veeeeeery popular among collectors.

I tend toward the paranoid side at times. I'm astonished that a piece of paper that once laid on a desk in a Japanese animation studio could end up half way around the world, intact, some 15 odd years later. Being new to the field of collecting, and with the mystique surrounding the adventure such an article must have taken, I couldn't help but be a bit suspect. After all, there are people who will do anything for a buck these days it seems.

Azumanga Daioh is often credited as the founder of a genre. I see it as more of a specialization of existing genres. It reminds me somewhat of the older series Marmalade Boy, and the surprisingly obscure Mizuiro Jidai. Azu focuses more on school and comedy, than life in general and drama.

Pixel wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with Mr. Sakurai. Hold on a sec. (pulls up the English credits roll) Oh okay, Animation Director Masaaki Sakurai. That surname sounds familiar- by chance is he related to SSB director Masahiro Sakurai?

Some collectors spend too much time trying to identify the artist responsible for animation sketches, and Anime News Network's online Encyclopedia is a convenient place to work on this. The entry for Azumanga Daioh gives all the animation directors for each of the episodes, and so if you know the location of your sketch, you can (usually) identify the animation director for that sketch. But as many artists on different levels worked on each of the cuts (or sequences), that can give you only an idea of which artist's distinctive vision influenced the people who worked under his/her supervision. That said, though, the sketches on colored paper were normally done by the episode's animation director. So the second sketch, from Ep. 25, is likely by that show's animation director, Makoto Furuta. ANN then lets you click on that person's name, and you can find out what else that artist was involved in. Sometimes the animator went on to much more visible positions, notably being Character Designer and/or Chief Animation Director of a well-known series.

Furuta, I see, did get this chance, designing and directing the animation for a 2011 series called Seitokai Yakuindomo, which did well enough to have three spin-off projects. In 2012, he was Chief Animation Director for another series called simply K (which also had several spin-offs). I'm not familiar with these (the image that ANN has for the first does look a lot like Azu art, though), but it is often intriguing to search out the history of the person who executed (or at least approved) a sketch you own. (Furuta, I see, also did work on erotic OAVs like Sex Demon Queen that were quick money-winners in an industry where animators worked hard and earned relatively little.)

I'm astonished that a piece of paper that once laid on a desk in a Japanese animation studio could end up half way around the world, intact, some 15 odd years later. Being new to the field of collecting, and with the mystique surrounding the adventure such an article must have taken, I couldn't help but be a bit suspect. After all, there are people who will do anything for a buck these days it seems.

Well, my understanding is that both in the US and in Japan production materials were considered and treated like trash. I got an interesting email once from a long-time collector in Japan where he describes going Dumpster-diving outside the studio of Nippon Animation while Future Boy Conan was in production. That was at the time the main way in which you could get hold of art from that influential series. In other cases, the studio just hired a company to come and haul away the paper and plastic from a series once it wrapped. The plastic was especially problematic, as it could not be incinerated or composted, and it took up ungodly amounts of space. Cardcaptor Sakura suffered this fate, and years later it's still surprising to see just how much art from that series is still being sold. Yes, it was treated in a shabby way. I've seen photos of storage pods stacked high with original art, simply stuffed in cardboard boxes. Some comes out of the bag in my room with intense mildew odor. I once caught and killed a live Japanese silverfish that tried to escape when I uncrated a sketch set.

I'd say it's a good bet that you will be the first person to treat a given sketch with the care and respect that its place in animation history should have earned it.

Some collectors spend too much time trying to identify the artist responsible for animation sketches, and Anime News Network's online Encyclopedia is a convenient place to work on this. The entry for Azumanga Daioh gives all the animation directors for each of the episodes, and so if you know the location of your sketch, you can (usually) identify the animation director for that sketch.

I had the credits roll in English (romaji, what have you) fairly handy, so that seemed like the simplest thing to do at the time. Interesting to see so many people worked on a series like this.

Cardcaptor Sakura suffered this fate, and years later it's still surprising to see just how much art from that series is still being sold. Yes, it was treated in a shabby way. I've seen photos of storage pods stacked high with original art, simply stuffed in cardboard boxes. Some comes out of the bag in my room with intense mildew odor. I once caught and killed a live Japanese silverfish that tried to escape when I uncrated a sketch set.

Wow, that foreign silverfish could have been big trouble if it escaped into the wild.

I can sort of see the other side of this mindset though. I mean multiple cels for one frame, perhaps sometimes 12 frames per second if "on two's", even more if "on one's", times 60, times 21-24. We're talking a lot of cels here. This is just one episode too. Episode total (times 26 in the case of Azumanga Daioh), times 76 in the case of Maramalde Boy, IIRC.

So a rough guess best case scenario might be.

Average number of UNIQUE cels per frame * F frames per second [F >= 12] * 60 seconds * 21-24 minutes per episode * number of episodes.

Needless to say, that's a ton of plastic and fun chemicals there, almost literally. It is just for ONE series as well. That's just the cels too. We're not even talking genga and douga here. The studio may have dozens of series on top of all that. Where could they possibly keep it all?

I'd say it's a good bet that you will be the first person to treat a given sketch with the care and respect that its place in animation history should have earned it.

I'm already thinking about that.

The thing about Azumanga Daioh - I have yet to see ANY cels from the series for sale ANYWHERE. Not on eBay, Yahoo Japan, or Mandarake. I don't know if J.C Staff had them destroyed, or if they are locked away somewhere or what. I see what are called "cel sketches", which is probably another way of saying "douga", but not the cels themselves. There may be background cels among as-yet unidentified lots of other series BG cels somewhere, but known character cels? Uh-uh. Nada.

Pixel wrote:The thing about Azumanga Daioh - I have yet to see ANY cels from the series for sale ANYWHERE. Not on eBay, Yahoo Japan, or Mandarake. I don't know if J.C Staff had them destroyed, or if they are locked away somewhere or what. I see what are called "cel sketches", which is probably another way of saying "douga", but not the cels themselves. There may be background cels among as-yet unidentified lots of other series BG cels somewhere, but known character cels? Uh-uh. Nada.

I did a quick look with RS's internal search, and I see the same. Most studios did the change-over from cels to CGI right around the year 2000, with some hanging on to the old tech. a year or two later, and some pushing the curve a year or two before Y2K.

There are some items that have some of the vibrance of cels. A few galleries have what is called a "color test" or "sample," which is a sheet that studios printed off using the colors chosen to be filled in digitally. That sometimes shows up in sketch sets from this time period (I have a few from Genshiken.) And I see a couple of those: Anime Cel Depot has one. And the series still had paper backgrounds done in watercolor, which were scanned as part of the production process. A few of these showed up on the market. Cenbe's Cel & Sketch Gallery has one.

Otherwise you'll see pencil-on-paper art much like you've seen. But browsing through collections like these will give you a clear indication of what genuine production art looks like and the various levels of the animation process that they represent. Again, for me the ones on colored paper are the most interesting, as they are usually done by the episode animation directors. But the white-paper ones are not to be despised, as they are the work of the key animators who are individually credited in the closing titles.

BTW, Rubberslug's search engine is not always complete, but if you search Google for "Azumanga + Rubberslug" you may find more of these galleries. Or "Azumanga + genga" for non RS galleries (if any do hold art from this series). It's an entertaining way to spend free time -- maybe too entertaining at times. But you learn a lot in doing so. Good luck, both here and in your quest for a hosting site. (I too worry about Photobucket, which once was a very convenient place to host images, but from what I hear I may need to relocate all my exported images soon.)

That "color test" looks very nearly dead on to me. I know where this scene is. Well, I forgot the episode number, I think it was E5. Anyway Tomo is talking about a particular game that her family plays, much to the chagrin of those around her. It is the sort of thing not appropriate for a family to play. This is fairly late in the scene, as a certain visual effect is in play here, indicating someone isn't very happy with what she just heard.

IIRC, Kagura finishes the scene by saying something to the effect of (translated) "What kind of family do you have?"

The second one says it's for Osaka. The perspective is similar, but not identical, to the scene in E7 where Tomo dons a cat suit and hauls butt across the school and down three flights of stairs. She is supposedly advertising for their "stuffed animal cafe".

I don't suppose either of those are for sale. I noticed in the credits something about digital artwork. Maybe some of the final animation was done on computer?

I found another.

http://cenbe.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv ... mID=301812

I think this is from the first culture fest, maybe E6, where Yukari's team wins the overall competition, and Yukari can't resist rubbing it in Minamo's face while Minamo is trying to cheer her own team up. This is Team Yukari's reaction shot, IIRC. I notice that for some reason, Kaorin and Yomi are annotated in the shot specifically.

I wouldn't think I could recognize it so readily.

One more-

http://cenbe.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv ... mID=301832

I know EXACTLY where this one is. The last few scenes of E18. Chiyo gives Yomi an "omiyage" from an amusement park Yomi wanted to visit earlier in the episode. I'm so glad to see one of her without that blasted glare effect. I see the owner described the sketch. When I see some of these, and the associated scene immediately plays back in my head, minus a clear memory of the Japanese dialog. Chiyo is speaking off camera, "That's the mascot of Magical Land." I think she said (translated).

Pixel wrote:
http://cenbe.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv ... mID=301812

I think this is from the first culture fest, maybe E6, where Yukari's team wins the overall competition, and Yukari can't resist rubbing it in Minamo's face while Minamo is trying to cheer her own team up. This is Team Yukari's reaction shot, IIRC. I notice that for some reason, Kaorin and Yomi are annotated in the shot specifically.

I wouldn't think I could recognize it so readily.

Not first culture fest, first SPORTS fest. Japanese schools and their "fests". Also, the annotations I mentioned are the girls' names in kana. I'll have to locate the scene to figure out why they were annotated.

I'm an idiot. I didn't recognize it so quickly after all. It is actually from E23, the last sports fest. The teachers participate as last leg of the track relay. I still couldn't find a reason for the annotations. I think Chihiro's name may be the girl at camera far right. I'm not sure.

I should have known this was later, Sakaki-san didn't have her hair pulled into a ponytail like that during any other sports fest.

You definitely have the hard-bitten fan's eye for subtle differences. I remember how someone asked me to locate a random looking cel of Syaoran from CCS doing his ofuda spell wearing his school uniform. As Syaoran does this spell about once per episode (sometimes more often if the magical test is difficult and Cardcaptor Sakura is being unusually klutzy) and also shows up wearing this uniform fairly often, that's usually an impossible task. And Madhouse didn't do banks, at least not in the Sailor Moon style where the exact same cels were used over and over. So it could be just about anywhere in the seventy episodes that the series took to narrate. (And two movies, but the cel was not letterboxed, so it couldn't be in one of them, more's the pity.)

But then I noticed -- it's the summer version of the uniform. That cuts down the possible episodes somewhat. And he's doing the ofuda spell while in his school clothes rather than the Li Ceremonial Robe that he puts on when he's expecting a magical test. So it has to be a situation in which he's at school or on a school field trip when the situation arises without warning. Ahhhhh ... put the two details together and it can ONLY be ... Episode ...

Well, I don't actually recall which episode it was, but my fellow collector was gobsmacked when I came up with the screen cap.

BTW (and this is like asking if you've tried that neat "nose candy" the older kids are giving out to newbies behind the soccer net during lunch break for free ), have you checked what's up for auction on Yahoo Japan lately? A quick search of Rinkya's current data base shows a fair sampling of Azu production art, ranging from 1000 yen (about nine dollars, but you have to factor in deputy service commissions, internal fees, tips for Japanside employees, etc.) up to 10,000 (too much). It seems to be a good time to be collecting (Sensei has been saying since July 2000 ). No bgs or color tests, sadly, but lots of things come to s/he who lurks and watches quietly for a couple of years.

sensei wrote:You definitely have the hard-bitten fan's eye for subtle differences. I remember how someone asked me to locate a random looking cel of Syaoran from CCS doing his ofuda spell wearing his school uniform. As Syaoran does this spell about once per episode (sometimes more often if the magical test is difficult and Cardcaptor Sakura is being unusually klutzy) and also shows up wearing this uniform fairly often, that's usually an impossible task. And Madhouse didn't do banks, at least not in the Sailor Moon style where the exact same cels were used over and over. So it could be just about anywhere in the seventy episodes that the series took to narrate. (And two movies, but the cel was not letterboxed, so it couldn't be in one of them, more's the pity.)

But then I noticed -- it's the summer version of the uniform. That cuts down the possible episodes somewhat. And he's doing the ofuda spell while in his school clothes rather than the Li Ceremonial Robe that he puts on when he's expecting a magical test. So it has to be a situation in which he's at school or on a school field trip when the situation arises without warning. Ahhhhh ... put the two details together and it can ONLY be ... Episode ...

Well, I don't actually recall which episode it was, but my fellow collector was gobsmacked when I came up with the screen cap.

I don't know why entirely, but I've always been into picking up subtle details. Not just anime and animation though. I once saw an ad selling an item I really wanted on letgo. I couldn't get the seller to answer me. With just the name of the town she was in, maybe a first name and last initial, and a picture of another item she had placed in an antique shop about 15 miles away from the mentioned town, I was able to locate her. This item just happened to be placed in a window, and through that window I could see a tall sign with two support posts and a very short, block wall in front of it. At first it didn't help, but later on looking at the picture, I realized I could see the end of a "Subway" restaurant sign on the posts through that window. I recognized the green background and stylized "Y". I went to Subway's web site, typed in a nearby town, and went through Google street views looking for a town whose Subway sign had that configuration, and the wall on the correct side of the sign. When I found the correct sign, I could see the shop with the window right next door, and the short wall too. I was even pretty sure of which window the item was placed in. With my dad helping with the leg work, we got a name for the woman and a phone number, from the antique shop I think. When I called, her husband informed me the item was sold. Nevertheless, I found out who had it anyway. I never would have known for sure the item was sold without going through all that.

She had pictures of a boat for sale in front of her house. IIRC, I matched the house up on google street view as well, once I had enough information.

sensei wrote: BTW (and this is like asking if you've tried that neat "nose candy" the older kids are giving out to newbies behind the soccer net during lunch break for free ), have you checked what's up for auction on Yahoo Japan lately? A quick search of Rinkya's current data base shows a fair sampling of Azu production art, ranging from 1000 yen (about nine dollars, but you have to factor in deputy service commissions, internal fees, tips for Japanside employees, etc.) up to 10,000 (too much). It seems to be a good time to be collecting (Sensei has been saying since July 2000 ). No bgs or color tests, sadly, but lots of things come to s/he who lurks and watches quietly for a couple of years.

I'm not sure how buying from foreign auctions would work out. I have bought some audio CD's from Japan though. Two I have in hand. More are now somewhere between myself and USPS ISC New York. it takes so long, unless you want to pay a fortune. I had the CD's shipped where I could track them. I went on Google street view, and pulled up a picture of the post office in southwest Japan that I think probably received them for shipment from the seller. I also learned that these CD's left Japan through Osaka, which I found to be remarkably appropo.

I've even plugged the return address from the package the first two CD's came in into street view, and seen that structure as well. Google street view has surprisingly good coverage of the Kansai region, from what I can tell.

Sometimes, I just have too much free time on my hands.

I'll keep an eye on the Japanese side though. Is there anyone here who might could help me if I decide to try for something?

Pixel wrote:I'm not sure how buying from foreign auctions would work out. I have bought some audio CD's from Japan though. Two I have in hand. More are now somewhere between myself and USPS ISC New York. it takes so long, unless you want to pay a fortune.

I'll keep an eye on the Japanese side though. Is there anyone here who might could help me if I decide to try for something?

There are three very respected and widely used proxy bidding or deputy services that are familiar to Beta members: Rinkya, Shopping Mall Japan, and Celga. Each has its peculiar details, which may attract or annoy some people, but they all work in the same way.

You register with the service, then use their website to place a bid (or buy a product from a Japanside store). Employees on the Japan side then pay the seller, and you are billed for the item plus a commission and, usually, an extra fee that pays for the shipping costs to the Japanese facility. The service receives the goods and stores them on your behalf, and when you want them all sent to you, they are shipped in one package, saving you considerably on that front.

I use Rinkya, which stores items in Japan, then ships them internationally to me, and I have used Shopping Mall Japan (SMJ), which sends nearly all the items to the US, then ships them to you using domestic postage rates. Celga, which I have not used (but which has its admirers on Beta) stores and ships from Japan. The commission/shipping rates are calculated differently, but are, from what I can tell, comparable.

So the choice has to do with which bidding platform you like, which features appeal to you, and how you relate to the customer service. These are things that are argued out in a number of threads on Beta (and the proprietor of SMJ is a Beta member) that you can track down. They will most likely be found in the "YJ" Forum under "Auctions/Buy/Sell/Trade." Here are some recent threads (and I warn you that all posts are the opinions of Beta members and should be taken as such, not as the settled opinions of the Beta mod/admin team):

Give Me Your Best Proxies!
Proxy Bidding Services
Ordering on YJ through different sites
One stop proxy?

Keep in mind that the farther back you go, the less up-to-date the information is, and some of the posts may refer to policies that since have changed or quality of service that was superb then but less careful now. And you will also see some other proxy/deputy services mentioned that might be worth a look (e.g., Buyee).

There is a learning curve with each of these, but once that has been surmounted, then you can gain much more direct and economical access to Japanese products and production art. Obviously, you will find many Beta members who can help you with the learning curve or with any issues you encounter.