Getting Rid of all Plastic/Poly bags for Cels?

[kizu]

Does anybody else these days think that acid free poly bags are no longer appropriate for use in preserving their cel collection? Over the years i've been rebagging my collection and putting them back into prats and itoyas and some bags are better than others but what was consistent is that the poly bags does react with the paint on the cel. Recently i had a cel that was sold to me that the seller didn't indicate there was vinegar syndrome. It was bagged more and more and I believe even had microchamber paper in it. I removed it from the bags and put it in a more DIY controlled environment trying to keep everything RH 50 temp 65. That cel was only 20 years old and I had cels that are over 40 years old and only 2 of those had vinegar syndrome which I already separated and put in that controlled environment.

I'm thinking of never bagging the cels again and switching over from celbags to either naked in the portfolios (with archival tissue paper) in between the black inserts and moving some to museum grade storage boxes with acid free interleaving paper and archival folders. I'm just really thinking over the years that cel bags just didn't seem to cut it and i always ventilated them and never closed them, with the exception of a few of my cels in cel bags that are also in top loaders. Also over the years I've been reading up on preservation and for those cels that may have already started degradation, that any plastics will react and accelerate it's degradation. Most degradation may not be obvious especially if you don't have AD strips (which I can't find anywhere), not obvious until you smell it.

A long time ago when i first started collecting, there was this "collection" i stumbled upon of Kenshin OVA cels that was highly prized. The person who collected was involved in bringing the Tsuioku-hen OVA to the US and as a gift, he received a large collection of cels. When he sold a couple of those cels to me, there was a photo of the way the collection was stored - they were filed the same way, archival tissue paper in acid free file folders inside a museum grade box - not a single plastic to be found in those photos and when I received the few cels I could afford, they were not in bags but came in individual file folders w/ tissue paper. I didn't quite get it - I thought it was all rather cheap way to store until years later I find that museum grade boxes were pretty expensive so those folders and tissue paper must've been archival. This was maybe 15 years ago. I didn't really think about preserving anything. I was just wanting to collect everything.

Sorry this seems long winded. Anybody else thinking over their experience that for cels it's just not advisable to be in poly bags even if you do air it out, kept it ventilated etc. etc.?

[Ginta]

I don't store them inside the bags, but I wouldn't put the paint of the cel up against the paper in the Itoya book because it would stick. There are a couple of alternatives:
https://www.gaylord.com/resources/under ... eservation

[kizu]

Thanks. Yeah I never used Mylar just because I truly have seen things to it stick. I mostly use archival Polypropylene but again it puckers and isn't really "inert" as what the article suggest. I think there is some truth about cel paint sticking to the black inserts but the way I store my cels are free hanging with no pressure applied to any of the sides and that's why i was thinking of using interleaving tissue paper between the black inserts and the cel then placing a micro chamber paper for each page (just as an extra precaution and if it does stick -highly unlikely-, it's tissue paper). This is the "least wasteful" option for me I think and I won't feel bad chucking all the plastic nor my celbooks. LOL.

Another option though that i'm starting to really like is getting very thin 1 inch museum grade boxes and placing 10-15 naked cels in there with interleaving tissue and microchamber and likely small dessicants like zeolites. Then stacking them horizontally. But this will be more expensive and essentially I'll feel wasteful for the reasons mentioned above. Also this means I will likely only take a look at the collection once a year to see how it's doing because handling naked cels doesn't sound great to me. That means it's a way of storing that discourages viewing... And I loved the celbooks for that purpose of "presentation". *sigh*

[cutiebunny]

Mylar is only for paper items like backgrounds and shikishi. The paint will stick to mylar and will become impossible to separate without damage to the cel.

Question - Will the archival paper stick to the back of the cels? I remember receiving cels with tissue paper stuck to the back of them and what a nightmare it would be to try to remove some of that stuff, especially if it had been plastered on there for years. If that's the case, then my choices are between replacing polybags or dealing with cels stuck to archival paper.

[oxypetalus]

I've seen a couple people in the cel collecting community bring this up recently. Storing cels in bags with some sort of opening left in the bag seems to have been the standard since I started collecting over 10 years ago. I guess it's because this method is the cheapest and most accessible to the average collector. I never really questioned it much but I think it merits another look. I guess one could say that if you have access to the money, supplies and space it would be safer to store cels in a way that they have more room to breathe. Putting a cel in a cel bag and then into an itoya page sleeve is kind of the same as double bagging it and that might be restricting air flow too much. The ripples/warping on cels bags where it touches cel paint I always figured was a product of something in the paint leaking out/out-gassing (just guessing.. don't know this for sure). I wonder if you were to put the cel against something else like archival paper if that paper would just end up absorbing whatever is coming out of the paint ? Not sure if that would be safer for cel since now you have introduced the risk of the cel sticking to the paper as well ?

I found this research paper where someone discusses how some places such as museums store their animation art. It might interesting for you to skim/read.http://library2.jfku.edu/Museum_Studies ... torage.pdf

I didn't read it 100% because i'ts quite long but it seems none of them use itoya portfolios and cel bags. A lot of them store cels in archival boxes with each cel separated by some kind of interleaving method ( either archival mat, paper, glassine, board, poly or plastic sheet etc) and stacking no more than 5 cels per box. If you want to get even more specialized some even have temperature/humidity controlled cabinets with filtered air flow.

I've actually been researching this topic a little for the animation art wiki but if you want to be safe you can look for folders/boxes/boards made using microchamber technology. You have probably seen this before but for anyone else who wants to read about microchamber tech can look here: http://www.conservationresources.com/Ma ... hamber.htm
Some products marked "archival" are actually only buffered and will slowly become acidic over time so please be careful. If you can afford microchamber goods I think it'd be a very safe method of storage.

Personally I think I have too many cels to do a more open storage method using archival boxes or folders. If I only had a few precious cels I think I would try the museum method. I think I will take more time to let my cels air out 24 hrs once per year though. I'm also a little scared of the tissue paper method personally. Every cel I have ever purchased that had tissue paper was stuck to tissue paper. Maybe the seller stored them wrong with too much pressure/weight so they got stuck but I personally wouldn't do tissue paper. I think every method has it's pros and cons and it's up to the collector to choose what they feel most comfortable with in the end though.

[kizu]

Question - Will the archival paper stick to the back of the cels? I remember receiving cels with tissue paper stuck to the back of them and what a nightmare it would be to try to remove some of that stuff, especially if it had been plastered on there for years. If that's the case, then my choices are between replacing polybags or dealing with cels stuck to archival paper.

I think it's possible that cels stick to archival paper. I mean they stick to those black inserts it prats but this was very rare for me (1 or 2) and when it did it was very "light". I imagine if things were "stacked" though there'd be more pressure and the sticking would be stronger and with more cels. I'm wondering if instead of tissue paper, i stick a big sheet of microchamber paper in there. I run the risk of sticking to the microchamber paper. I was thinking or archival tissue paper only because in general I thought if it stuck (should be very rare for me since I plan very little downward pressure), tissue interleaving would be easier to remove. This is just imagination though I don't have experience with it. Another option might be glassine.

[kizu]

I wonder if you were to put the cel against something else like archival paper if that paper would just end up absorbing whatever is coming out of the paint ? Not sure if that would be safer for cel since now you have introduced the risk of the cel sticking to the paper as well ?

I found this research paper where someone discusses how some places such as museums store their animation art. It might interesting for you to skim/read.http://library2.jfku.edu/Museum_Studies ... torage.pdf

I didn't read it 100% because i'ts quite long but it seems none of them use itoya portfolios and cel bags. A lot of them store cels in archival boxes with each cel separated by some kind of interleaving method ( either archival mat, paper, glassine, board, poly or plastic sheet etc) and stacking no more than 5 cels per box. If you want to get even more specialized some even have temperature/humidity controlled cabinets with filtered air flow.

Some products marked "archival" are actually only buffered and will slowly become acidic over time so please be careful. If you can afford microchamber goods I think it'd be a very safe method of storage.

Personally I think I have too many cels to do a more open storage method using archival boxes or folders. If I only had a few precious cels I think I would try the museum method.

I think at some point any paper product will stick which on one hand will force the collector to not apply pressure and to move the cel or better yet air it out and examine once a year. I did read that and also a thesis in 2018, that's where i thought it was interesting that certain museums used archival tissue. Agree on the archival, but at some point i guess just like when i started collecting my collection was small and in my mind not that expensive and so it was somewhat OK to do what everyone else was doing or suggesting. Now the collection is bigger and certain items are much more expensive, plus the fact that the sources are dried up... I think i probably need to do a better job at preserving the ones that I would literally cry if something happened to it. I don't plan to do all of it otherwise it won't fit in my climate controlled cabinet and I don't have a lot of money but when these cels tend to be 000 to 0000's each i think i need to do a better job.. Plus those that has an issue already I've already separated and placed in even more strict conditions - colder and lower than 50RH plus molecular sieves / zeolite and other desiccants.j

I think i will consider not using archival tissue, it the cels are going to stick anyway, perhaps just using microchamber paper as interleaves in the front and back may just be enough. I wish they made the sizes more convenient for cels though.

[oxypetalus]

I see you've done a lot of research yourself then. Yeah, I have a couple of expensive cels and then a whole bunch of cheaper ones. I worry the same about the expensive ones.

I found this Disney Storage Vault video if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWFH2ggAMvo

Around the 50 second mark you can see how they stored a single cel laying against a piece of tissue/glassine paper. The paper is rippled just like the way plastic cel bags ripple where they touch the paint. Hmm... it makes me think that even with a open storage method the rippling will happen no matter what.

I personally don't store my cels with the microchamber paper directly touching the cel paint. I try to put the paper on the front of the cel or if I put it behind I cut up a cel bag and put a piece of plastic between the bag and paper. I don't have any experience with this but someone mentioned before that microchamber paper can absorb moisture so it's possible for the paper to suck up the moisture in the cel paint and then make the paint dry and crack off. I never put cel paint on paper after hearing that

[tarakatsuki]

the way I store my cels are free hanging with no pressure applied to any of the sides

I'm curious how you're hanging them. Do you have a picture to show? Lately I've been trying to think if there is something else I can do besides storing my cels in the multiring binders. Then I found myself awake at like 2 am this morning, wondering if you could rig something up where you utilize the holes in the cels to hang them. Maybe string them up somehow with spacers and have them in a container of some sort. If that makes sense, lol....it did to my 2 am brain.

I just want to make sure I can do whatever is needed to prolong the life of my collection, but I also have over 300 cels for sure, so that needs to be considered as well.

[kizu]

I'm curious how you're hanging them. Do you have a picture to show?

Sorry I suck. I didn't see this. But here's a picture of when I took out my setup from the storage and had it free standing in a room temporarily. Old school hangers! The top part (it's collapsed in the picture and don't have the books, they held the cels and the lower part, what's pictured holds the background and sketches) so it's a two layer setup. I've since moved these to different cel books so I can place in climate controlled cabinets of different sizes since the cabinet won't fit this 2 layer contraption... but you get the idea.