Fan cel etiquette

naturalgrace · Post by **naturalgrace** » Thu May 24, 2007 2:37 pm

During a recent sales transaction, a question I was asked got me thinking. The cel I was buying was one of this person's favourites, and they asked me if I minded if they commissioned a fan cel of it. I had no problem with this.

My personal feeling is that even though I may physically own a certain cel, I don't exclusively "own the image", if you will. Be that as it may, I'd only apply this standard to my own collection, and if I knew that someone didn't want a fan cel made of one of their cels, I'd respect that. So far, this situation has never come up.

Where it gets iffy, I think, is screenshots and sequence mates. Or A1 ends for that matter, since in those cases there is only one image to be had. There's also the fact that all cels or paper goods belong to somebody (be it a collector, a dealer or a studio), so I guess in some sense you're always commissioning an image that doesn't "belong" to you.

What do you feel is proper etiquette when it comes to fan cels?

EternityOfPain · Post by **EternityOfPain** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:18 pm

Interesting question, i never really thought about it. To me it shouldn't matter. Its like those who buy bootleg DVDs verses buying the ligit. They may offer the same episodes, similar quality (as the originals) but they are not originals. So to answer your question it wouldn't bother me if someone asked or didn't ask to do a fancel of one of my cels because the truth is, what they are creating is nothing but a replication. Its not the real deal.

Post by **JWR** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:20 pm

I myself would not have a problem so long as the person contacted me beforehand and asked permission.

I'm certain a lot would not be pleased if they saw a fan cel made of a cel of theirs shown or offered for sale they did not give such permission , in fact I know several that password the larger images of their sketches to prevent such from being done.

Cloud · Post by **Cloud** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:21 pm

You sound convincing. Impressive.

Keropi · Post by **Keropi** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:44 pm

-edited out-

I changed my mind on posting.

Pretend I didn't post.

RoboFlonne · Post by **RoboFlonne** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:57 pm

I would prefer if they could make a fan cel that is a sequence mate...

Cloud · Post by **Cloud** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:57 pm

I would rather be chatting online.

ZombieBunny · Post by **ZombieBunny** » Fri May 25, 2007 12:48 am

As a person who gets fan cels done, I find it right to ask if you need THEIR scan to get the image done.

If you get screencaps or product scans, I don't think you should have to ask. Personally, and this is my opinion, it shouldnt matter as long as they are not going around saying it is the original one.

There are people who cannot afford the actual production cel no matter how much they want it and their only option is to get a fan cel done. I see nothing wrong with that as long as they lable it as one.

Caroline · Post by **Caroline** » Fri May 25, 2007 10:27 pm

since your question is regarding the "etiquette" aspect and not the legality issue, then i would say it is 100% good etiquette to contact the owner of the original cel. we purchase certain cels because they are one of a kind, which makes the cel special and our collections special. i, for one, would like to see my collection remain special.

that goes without saying that i wouldn't have a problem with someone creating a fan cel from something in my collection, as long as they asked nicely first and gave the original cel credit.

ashenfairy · Post by **ashenfairy** » Sun May 27, 2007 12:17 pm

I think proper etiquette would be to request permission of the original owner. I generally am pretty apathetic to people using my cel images for other things (unless they're saying it's their cel and/or taking my bandwidth) But, I think I would be a bit annoyed if a person purposefully came along and took one of my images especially to make into a fan cel. It just seems sort of rude. On the other hand if they made the same image out of screenshot of one the A1 END cels I have I wouldn't really care about that. I guess it's the knowingly making a copy of something you know to be in another person collection that I find to be a bit rude. I've never commissioned a fan cel but, if I did I think I'd make every effort to commission something more unique and/or that doesn't already exist in cel form. For me half the fun of owning a cel is having a unique piece of art.

duotrouble · Post by **duotrouble** » Tue May 29, 2007 2:01 am

I don't think you need to worry about asking any cel owner any kind of permission to make a fan cel of the cel they happen to have just as long as you don't use their image.

Even if it's an A1 end cel, no one can prove you didn't give the fan cel artist a screencap. We own the personal images we scanned of our cels NOT the images from the anime. So bottom line, I wouldn't worry about it.

I screencapped something and made it my avatar once. The owner of the cel contacted me telling me how great it was that I chose that image. (I didn't even know someone here owned it.) It was a terrific email chain. So I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

usamamo · Post by **usamamo** » Tue May 29, 2007 4:07 am

Mmm Interesting.....

But what if.............I got a fan cel made from a screen cap and then I got an email telling me something nasty saying I should have asked permission to do such a thing because they owned the actual cel. But I had no idea they did...because lets face it, as if I am going to go through every gallery to find out if any of you own that particualr cel.....

Then what....should I be made to look before I commission a fan cel or are some of you a little bit 'anal' that you are going to make me search a cel out to make sure I don't comission a copy before asking. Personally I think it's a bit silly. If I got a fan cel made there is no way I would try and represent it as the real thing, further more the owner of the real thing shouldn't have a problem because they know they own the real thing...what offence can you take. You could get angry if I was trying to rip my fan cel off as the real thing...fair enough then, have a go. But otherwise I wouldn't have any issues someone gettin a fan cel made of one of my cels. I know I have the real one and nobody can take that away from me....ever.

duotrouble · Post by **duotrouble** » Tue May 29, 2007 10:49 am

usamamo wrote:But what if.............I got a fan cel made from a screen cap and then I got an email telling me something nasty saying I should have asked permission to do such a thing because they owned the actual cel.

I would ignore such an email. If that person continues to flood me with emails regarding it, I would block the email addresses they use.

I agree with you. There's no way any of us can go through everyone's gallery to find the one image we want a fan cel of so why would anyone think they should be even considered. As long as the person isn't selling a fan cel as the original, I have no problem with it.

Nene · Post by **Nene** » Tue May 29, 2007 11:35 am

I'm quite open-minded about it. If someone wanted to make a fancel (personal use, not for intentional sale) of a cel I own, I'd happily give them a larger scan. I don't really see what the big deal against it is since I would own the original in any case and if the other collector is happy getting a fancel made of a cel/scene that they want, everyone's happy. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, afterall.

I think it's already been mentioned but I don't think one can accuse someone of "stealing" their cel image to make a fancel. Afterall, they could have always used a screencap (and even in the case of hankens there are artbooks) and there is always that excuse to fall back on if someone doesn't like it. Infact presumably because some collectors don't want fancels of their cels made, I reckon some people are less likely to ask in the first place before using an image. And then if the owner of the original is angry enough to confront the person who has the fancel, the excuse of the screencap is still available and even plausible. But even if you knew that the person didn't want a fancel of their cel made, there's really nothing to stop you from doing it if you have the image.

Like Duotrouble said, as long as the person isn't trying to pass it off as original, I don't see that it matters if you ask for permission from the "image holder" or not. The worst they can say is no and I reckon some people don't want to take that chance. If someone did make a fancel of a cel I owned and didn't ask me, I'd just be glad that they were happy in all honesty. The only reason I have a gallery, besides keeping record of what I own, is to show production art to the public instead of hiding it away. Knowing that someone could benefit from that to enable them to recreate a cel they really like for their personal enjoyment is good to know. ^_^

jcaliff · Post by **jcaliff** » Tue May 29, 2007 2:29 pm

IMHO, if you're getting a fancel made of a cel that someone you know owns, it's nice to ask, but not necessary. I think it's only a real problem if the fancel artist tries to pass it off as an original production cel. Unfortunately, even if the cel is initially sold as a fancel, after passing through multiple sets of hands some of these cels find their way back onto ebay and YJ pretending to be production cels. The only real way to prevent that is with some identification on the cel itself like a permanent signature under the paint.

Sometimes you can tell if a fancel was copied from a certain cel and not a screencap because it will include parts of the image not present in the filmed/photographed version. Anyone working from a screencap can only guess what the edges of the cel image look like if the image goes to the edge of the cel.