How do you feel about copies?

[Rekka Alexiel]

I recently saw an auction on the Italian side of eBay for many sketches from Samurai Troopers (Yes, I'm scouring all ends of eBay for goodies! xD ). On first glance at the images, I could pretty much tell that they were copied gengas even though the auction subject line said, "40 sheets CEL art pencil". Now, reading further into the item description it stated that they are in fact copies, saying specifically, "Settei copy by NORIO SHOYAMA"; the word "copy" only used once in the entire listing. Without seeing this I wrote and asked the seller whether or not they were copies. He wrote back rather frankly and said they were copied, just as the description said. ^^; Sorry dude, I admit the foresight but think it was a legitimate question.

Going on, the description listed the COPIED sketches as settei when in fact they were gengas. I replied with this information only attempting to help the seller and added that they may be a difficult sell since the real value is with originals. I don't believe this was stated in a derogatory or condescending manner. Then the guy comes back at me, accusing me of not knowing how much copied genga sets (first time he actually used the correct term) sell for in Japan and that he has sold many copied sets of these specific gengas just fine in the past. ((*cringe*)) He then added that I should not worry for his business, ending with an "ahh, ahh." (O.o) ?

Call me shocked, why don't you! xP

Well, sorry to the Italian dude who thought I was attacking his business of selling copied gengas for profit (and who knows how many times they've been copied!!), but to go the extra step as to fling assumptions and accusations over an otherwise legitimate question is shocking to say the least! Would love to know what he'd say if only he knew I live in Japan... xD

Anyway, it got me thinking about the "business". I know things are only valuable depending upon personal preference and even 5th+ gen copied sketches might be valuable to someone who would otherwise not be able to get the original. What is your stance on collecting copies? Do you think there is real, collectible value in copies? Is the value only personal? And what do you think about sellers who would make multiple copies of sketches to make a never ending source of profit?

Personally, I don't think there is any collectible value in copies, but if it's from a show I love and could NEVER get the original, I might think about it. But I get a really sick feeling when I think about people making a zillion copies of something for sheer profit rather than the joy of collecting. *shrug*

[BuraddoRun]

What is your stance on collecting copies? Do you think there is real, collectible value in copies? Is the value only personal? And what do you think about sellers who would make multiple copies of sketches to make a never ending source of profit?

Well, firstly, the fact that he got a bit nasty and defensive with you shows that deep inside he knows something is wrong about it, or feels that way somewhere anyway. Plus, the fact he only mentioned the word "copy" once shows that he is also hoping some would-be buyers overlook that fact.

Personally, I don't collect copies, nor do I want to. As far as value goes, well...I've seen some genga copies of Miyazaki and One Piece stuff get multiple bids on Mandarake. I mean, the titles literally say "One Piece genga copy," and people bid, so the Italian probably wasn't lying when he said he's sold some before. As for sellers doing this, I have mixed feelings. I believe in a free market, and so more power to the dude if people wanna pay him for copies. But, I also believe in being straight up and truthful about what you're selling. And because of the nature of this hobby, selling copies like that does seem to devalue the originals, just because it's more "out there" if multiple copies exist. But then, if you own the originals, you should be able to do whatever you want with them, even if it sours your image among the collector community.

So I guess personally I don't cringe at the practice, but I do shake my head. And I probably wouldn't purchase anything from that guy, even if he sold some originals.

[star-phoenix]

I personally strongly dislike copies and do not collect them. However, I have seen some copies even sell for $1000+ in the past. But, these copies I speak of are ones made by the studio, not by private people (private people who do not own the copyrighted material <nor the permission to copy> are illegally copying them and should be reported on Ebay). I have seen several model sheets (copy) that were made by the Disney studio that have gone super high, and there is a big market for them.

[sensei]

I occasionally see sets of copies show up on Yahoo Japan labeled something like 総作監修正集　設定資料 or "setting materials for work reference." So evidently it was not uncommon for studios to take some of the gengas and make a packet for the animation team to use as "reference copies" as they worked. Since these began their history as photocopies, I can see why some sellers would see nothing in particular wrong about making next-generation copies for sale, just as some people collect settei and sell next-generation copies from the ones they obtain. I don't like the seller's attitude, but he might have a point.

Here's an auction for "reference copies" for Texhnolyze, one of several series for which I've seen these packets of copies sell. Heck, I've even seen batches of photocopied CCS gengas on YHJ. But it would take a lot to get me to bite. The only set of copies I ever deliberately bought was from Mushishi, and it included super-high-end color-copier repros of gengas that were sold as a special deal to people who attended the sneak preview of the final direct-to-dvd episodes in movie theatres.

[Rekka Alexiel]

Well, maybe you can tell what these are more than I can. To me all they look like genga copies. Whether they are copied for reference purposes, I don't know. Here is the eBay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... TQ:US:1123

The seller said that they bought the genga set on YJ for 6500 + local shipping + paypal fee + international shipping from Chiba, which I believe is his round-about way of saying that people DO buy genga sets (this was never the intended issue). He went on to point out that there are copied genga sets from One Piece on Mandarake Auctions with actual price of 7100yen and that several auctions of copied genga done by the main character designers can go over 20,000yen, again showing the potential value of even copied genga sets. orz

I am just blown away by this guy and his defensive replies. My initial comment was coming from ME as a collector of YST cels of over 15 years. Unlike hit shows like One Piece, YST is not necessarily the most popular of all shows for copies of copied gengas to go above 2,000yen, even if character designer Shioyama did the designs. Not impossible, mind you! There are current auctions on YJ of copied genga sets from YST that start at 8,500yen but have been listed for months and months with no bids. Not impossible for someone to eventually make a bite for a set, but highly unlikely, which was all I wanted to convey--that they may have difficulty selling them. My intention was one of assistance from experience not an attack on the seller and his practices which I may or may not agree with; that was not the point. *sigh*

Makes me giggle how simply asking whether or not they're originals and then gently correcting the terminology from 'settei' to 'copied genga' set him off...and oooooh how off track he got!! xP

[cutiebunny]

It's just insecurity. You're asking him about the copies, and he's trying to justify his selling of these copies with the 'If Mandarake can do it, so can I' excuse. I don't like the accusational tone, but that could either be because he feels threatened and has interpretted it as questioning him on ethics of selling copies or his English fluency is not good. Or it could be both.

But to answer your question, I don't like copies, and if at all possible, I try not to buy them. However, sometimes that's the only way to get artwork from a particular series, especially if it's one of the newers series where most of the artwork has been destroyed. Sometimes copies come with backgrounds; The majority of Kobato layouts are copies that were attached to the original backgrounds. I recall buying some copied Rozen Maiden sketches because, at the time, there were no sketches being released and I really loved Shinku and Suiseiseki(-desu!). It's a dilemma; On one hand, you love the show and want to own a part of it, but on the other hand, you don't want to support the person who bought the item only to make copies for resale.

As for making copies of copied items, I've made copies of copied settei before for a friend, but it was a couple of items of Sailor Moon settei, which, by now, has been copied and recopied ad infinitum. I don't think it had much monetary value, but she appreciated it and likely has no intention of selling it. But, unless the item was solely for my usage (ie. submitting artwork to a fancel creator), I have no intention of creating copies of my sketches. The best way to stop people from making a buck from others work is to prevent it from being released in the first place.

[sensei]

It's possible that genga copies of sketches by the character designer might well be worth bidding on, just to peek behind the scenes at the style of the original artists. But the examples he's showing are gengamen's work rather than the roughs or the shuusei genga that just might arguably be the work of Norio Shioyama, who did do animation direction for six episodes.

I'd say they would be useful if you were doing doujinshi based on the series or were interested in doing fan art in tribute to the series. They obviously have no value from an animation art collecting point of view. (Snobs that we are, we don't want "a" copy but "the" copy. [insert "haughty sniff" emoticon] ) But the seller could be correct in noting that reference copies do sell to people for whom they have value. (Occasionally ... the Texhnolyze lot and a similar one have been going around for months with no bids.)

[Gonzai]

accusing me of not knowing how much copied genga sets (first time he actually used the correct term) sell for in Japan and that he has sold many copied sets of these specific gengas just fine in the past. ((*cringe*))

Here's an auction for "reference copies" for Texhnolyze, one of several series for which I've seen these packets of copies sell.

Probably the same seller.

Well, maybe you can tell what these are more than I can. To me all they look like genga copies. Whether they are copied for reference purposes, I don't know. Here is the eBay listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... TQ:US:1123

Wanders over to eBay to send the guy a message letting him know how difficult it will be to sell those since the real value is with originals.

**Hugs Rekka**

[ReiTheJelly]

I view copies of animation sketches the same way I view reproductions of antiques: they have nominal value in the decorative market, but in the collecting market they're basically worthless. Unless they're studio-made and have additional annotations, in which case, they might have some additional value.

[theultimatebrucelee]

to me the copies is a way to cure curiosity. I don't usually buy them and don't connect them with a specific value, other than how much I want to find out about something.

I did a few month ago get a set of mirai nikki sketch copies because there wasn't much of anything around for the series and the auction photo seemed interesting to me, for about 5000yen I think. but there was no specific value to it. the same seller listed more every week and sometimes it ends at 2000yen and other times more than 10000yen, depends on photo.

I think selling sketch copy is not a horrible thing to do, because if sketches of a series is not on market, then its possible that the copy is the next best thing there is. still, some people are just ignorant and only really care about money and not knowledge.

[BuraddoRun]

Wanders over to eBay to send the guy a message letting him know how difficult it will be to sell those since the real value is with originals.

HA! Nice!

[Rekka Alexiel]

Thanks guys for your thoughts! These couple back-and-forths with this seller seemed to have upset me more than it should have. :p

And all of this occurs when I have apparently won an auction for a settei set for over 20,000........ BUT that was just my IDIOTIC mistake when I was drugged with the flu. I couldn't ask for the bid to be retracted, it was my mistake and I must live with it... But all I have to say is, it better be a dang nice settei set. lol geeeeesh.

It's a dilemma; On one hand, you love the show and want to own a part of it, but on the other hand, you don't want to support the person who bought the item only to make copies for resale.

I think selling sketch copy is not a horrible thing to do, because if sketches of a series is not on market, then its possible that the copy is the next best thing there is. still, some people are just ignorant and only really care about money and not knowledge.

Yeah, it saddens me to think that someone may have bought the originally copied set only to make multiple copies for resale profit. It's like entirely ripping out the heart of this hobby for me.

It's possible that genga copies of sketches by the character designer might well be worth bidding on, just to peek behind the scenes at the style of the original artists. But the examples he's showing are gengamen's work rather than the roughs or the shuusei genga that just might arguably be the work of Norio Shioyama, who did do animation direction for six episodes.

Definitely! As originals! xD I was lucky in recent months to get an original genga sketch by Shioyama of a key moment with my fav character, and that didn't go above 6,000.

I'd say they would be useful if you were doing doujinshi based on the series or were interested in doing fan art in tribute to the series. They obviously have no value from an animation art collecting point of view. (Snobs that we are, we don't want "a" copy but "the" copy. [insert "haughty sniff" emoticon] )

Wanders over to eBay to send the guy a message letting him know how difficult it will be to sell those since the real value is with originals.

I'm such an idiot, right? Apparently I have a knack of sounding rude even when I'm not trying to be. Shoot. I'm just going to shut up now. lol

[Killua]

It's kinda like someone buying an art book, and then photocopying it and selling those copies...

[kizu]

I buy copies but only cheaply (if I can) and only because I know I probably can't get the original. I consider money I used to buy these copies (like settei or maybe even genga) similar to burning money. I will never get my money back and that they have little to no value as a collectors item. They have value as an entertainment item I think and if I were able to sell them, that might be the only reason and as entertainment items I don't think they should be worth a lot. Though I have paid over 200 USD for settei once. Just because I paid that much doesn't make it that valuable, I doubt anyone would buy them from me. LOL.

As for selling copies I bet a lot of collectors would be angry if their genga were copied and sold. There doens't seem to be the same ill feeling about settei because we're conditioned to think settei "are" copies, when in fact there is an original. I think it's really about money, the more you reproduce the less it is worth. Now I do wonder about those who own genga, make copies of their own genga and sell them to recuperate cost. I wonder how that works... If they'll feel pressure from the community for doing so or if it doesn't matter because the most devaluation will happen to the person who owns the genga and is making copies of it.