Lightning Updaters, Slow Updaters, and Black Hole Collectors

[lunacels]

Cutiebunny, you have such a crazy awesome collection, if you have SM cels laying around I hope you update soon. I love haunting your gallery!

I've heard a few times about vindictiveness of Sailormoon collectors. This makes me sad and I confess to not understanding. What are they doing--bidding on items only if they know you want it? Aside from that just being immature, I would think that would be dangerous practice if they happen to end up holding the high winning bid for a cel that they either didn't really want or couldn't afford to pay. I guess I haven't paid heed to whatever the dynamics are in the community, and it's awful to think it's discouraging really great collectors to update.

Those godhand cels are amazing. Where is he/she getting them all? I wonder if this person worked for an animation studio? I picked up a few in the last year I think, but I could never hope to win them all...some of the prices ended up through the roof!

I have nothing but love for fellow Sailormoon collectors. At least you all have fabulous galleries to admire, and I get as much of a thrill perusing your collections. If I'm ever able to attend a con, I'm down to buy a round and talk shop!

[cutiebunny]

Thank you for the feedback. I've enjoyed your recent acquisitions that you've added to your RS gallery as well

I've heard a few times about vindictiveness of Sailormoon collectors. This makes me sad and I confess to not understanding. What are they doing--bidding on items only if they know you want it?

This was back in 2005/2006, when there were generally 2 auctions per week of top notch Sailor Moon cels. There was a certain collector at the time who would claim that one of the cels for sale was her wishlist cel and we were all to back off. Then, the following week, she would say the exact thing again when a new batch would pop up. At the time, most people would opt not to bid out of fear that she'd increase the prices on stuff they wanted in retribution. I, however, could care less, and would usually bid on the items I wanted anyway. I remember that I once updated with an Episode 200 cel that she wanted, and another RS member wrote to tell me that her friend, the person in question, really wanted that cel and that I was going to 'pay' for buying it. The harassment you would receive because you won and posted that cel was incredible, which is why I waited a couple of years before I'd choose to update. My thought was always that time would make the loss less painful.

I don't think there is as much, if any, vindictiveness now. Hard to say as I'm largely out of the SM collecting business. TBH, a part of why I made the transition to original art was that there was less hurtful behavior. I think this is because, over the past few years, many have really tried to be inviting and inclusive of others. Personally, I have tried to instill a sense of being happy for other collectors, even if that means that they get something awesome and all you take home is squiggly line. It can sometimes be very difficult, especially at cons where people want to show you what they got from an artist who may have only taken a couple of sketch commissions. Sometimes, you have to remind them (and yourself) of all the spectacular things you own that you enjoy.

[Jadeduo]

I have seen it as well @Lunacels, it was more back in the 2005/2006, and I was hacked over a cel from the BWA auction around that time, a GW cel I believe, although it could have been the Makoto Dress cel from Ep 39 toward the end of the sequence when it is flaring out behind her, both those auctions were around the same time.

My Paypal was rendered useless and my bank account and Paypal were emptied, my Mandarake was hacked and I was locked out of the account, and also my eBay account. Although I had just spent a VERY large amount of money so there was very little to steal, I was irritated because it was VERY obviously another Cel Collector who had done it, considering the accounts targeted. And it definitely soured me on Sailor Moon and GW collectors at the time because I couldn't be sure why it had happened. I stopped talking to people except for my very immediate circle of close friends. Which at the time included three other Sailor Moon collectors, only one of which is still active now.

It's weird that this impression that SM collectors are all crazy and super competitive, I mean more so than other collectors. But there was someone running around at that time that created that impression, and there are still a few drama llamas that pop up from time to time and accuse the rest of us that are still active of being vindictive and mean. I'm like, seriously, let it go, I could have become a black hole collector and I do go into hibernation at times when I have needed a break.

And from who is still around, I don't see it, I mean as far as active SM, we have me, Luna, Cutiebunny (I know not as much anymore ), Ginga, Tori Pagac and Milestogo. That I know of actively buying cels, and I have met 3 of you, (also Lunacels you should come to a convention sometime so we can meets up!) and Tori and I have traded e-mails during the contests and she is super sweet! I'm sure there might be more, but they lurk so I can't be sure ^______^

Also I can't find myself to be mad that I lost an auction, I always have a set number in mind of how high I will go. If it get's to that point, I am out, it is simple as that, I'm out. I've learned that at some point that cel you lost out on or it's sequence mate will always come back eventually. I actually just recently lost out in a bid war with Lunacels over that Chibi Chibi she just posted, did I get mad and start screaming? No, because I know that something else will come up eventually whether through private collector, auction or whatever. And she was willing to pay more for her than I was, so there you go, it is hers! Something will come up eventually, and I will prolly fight someone else for it, but eventually I will win a Chibi Chibi. In the meantime, the one Douga, and the cel of her and ESM will just have to be happy together in the Stars wing of my gallery.

JD

[zerospace]

I have seen it as well @Lunacels, it was more back in the 2005/2006, and I was hacked over a cel from the BWA auction around that time, a GW cel I believe, although it could have been the Makoto Dress cel from Ep 39 toward the end of the sequence when it is flaring out behind her, both those auctions were around the same time.

My Paypal was rendered useless and my bank account and Paypal were emptied, my Mandarake was hacked and I was locked out of the account, and also my eBay account. Although I had just spent a VERY large amount of money so there was very little to steal, I was irritated because it was VERY obviously another Cel Collector who had done it, considering the accounts targeted. And it definitely soured me on Sailor Moon and GW collectors at the time because I couldn't be sure why it had happened. I stopped talking to people except for my very immediate circle of close friends. Which at the time included three other Sailor Moon collectors, only one of which is still active now.

What GW collectors were THAT vindictive back then, JD? I was very active collecting the series in 05/06 and friendly with many of my biggest competitors, but I can't think of anyone who was THAT bad (or had the skills to hack their way out of a paper bag, honestly). If so, I should have been destroyed by someone because I routinely bid huge amounts to win certain Heero cels on YJ. I heard stories like yours about SM collectors -- it seems that they've always had a pretty bad reputation >_<, at least as long as I've been playing this game. But I have to be honest with you, I never received a threat from anyone regarding GW -- and I wasn't one to back off on anything. I'd sure stake my claim publicly, but I'd simply say the gloves were off and anyone who was going to compete, well.. be prepared to spend a small fortune to beat me.

[Jadeduo]

@Zerospace, I am by no means accusing any particular person on the forum, Because Hacking by nature is anonymous and I myself had no technical ability to track what was done, I didn't have any idea who had done it. I was sure it was a cel collector, because of the nature of which accounts were hacked. My facebook was fine, as well as my membership on some of the yaoi forums I was on was fine, as well as my Sailor Moon fan site, which I kept seperate from my cel sites. I just wasn't sure from which area, but I remember at the time I specifically went after a Duo cel in the BWA that me and someone else went back and forth on bidding for a good hour before I won. And it was the same thing on that Makoto cel. I don't know who, I can only speculate and really there is no evidence to point any fingers. Part of the problem is, is that it could have just been poor timing around those two auctions, or it could have been some earlier auctions, hell it could have been a black hole collector, who knows. I have moved past it, well I won't use Paypal anymore they were useless getting myself back up and running and to this day the account is still locked, but I am here trying to get us back on track still.

It is, however, a cautionary tale, and I have changed a lot of what I do online because of it! #1, be careful out there, and change your passwords, and also be careful on auctions don't let yourself get too invested! If you need to let it go, do so, and I am always careful as well about posting stuff. I used to do a coming soon section on RS and posted right after I won an auction and I no longer do that because of hurt feelings over lost auctions, I guess to some sensitive people it is like rubbing salt in the wound, and causes rage. Instead I now let stuff build up and do a large update at a time, I think that this contributes somewhat to me dragging my feet when updating.

Another thing I have been doing more of lately is I have been purchasing more things from private collections, instead of off auction sites, although a good chunk of my CCS stuff still comes off auction sites because the art that comes up is still pretty regular. Sailor Moon and GW are sporadic at best and competition is still pretty fierce, so I end up losing a lot because if it goes over the number in my head I am out. It is better to make an offer and see what comes of it. I am currently working on getting a few new Chibi-usas to add to the small clutch that I have, and huge suprise, details not until I have the piece in my collection! ^_^ The check has to go out in the mail still ^_~

Everyone totes be careful!
JD

[Angelic-Lair]

Things have changed over the years, that's for sure.
We used to update pretty frequently when we first put our site together (way back in 2009). And now we're lucky if we get an update in every year!
For us, its just a matter of a (reasonably) labour-intensive method of processing the artwork and a site that's just too darn difficult to work with anymore (we code everything in Notepad++).
Having said that, we do enjoy putting the site in order and uploading new artwork (more for ourselves more than anyone else... the artwork we collect is usually not very mainstream) but we do it when we find the time and are motivated to do so.

[zerospace]

@Zerospace, I am by no means accusing any particular person on the forum, Because Hacking by nature is anonymous and I myself had no technical ability to track what was done, I didn't have any idea who had done it. I was sure it was a cel collector, because of the nature of which accounts were hacked. My facebook was fine, as well as my membership on some of the yaoi forums I was on was fine, as well as my Sailor Moon fan site, which I kept seperate from my cel sites. I just wasn't sure from which area, but I remember at the time I specifically went after a Duo cel in the BWA that me and someone else went back and forth on bidding for a good hour before I won. And it was the same thing on that Makoto cel. I don't know who, I can only speculate and really there is no evidence to point any fingers. Part of the problem is, is that it could have just been poor timing around those two auctions, or it could have been some earlier auctions, hell it could have been a black hole collector, who knows. I have moved past it, well I won't use Paypal anymore they were useless getting myself back up and running and to this day the account is still locked, but I am here trying to get us back on track still.

I wasn't asking you to point fingers, girlie! I was just wondering why you thought a GW collector might have been the one, because I thought I knew most of the active GW collectors on Beta at that time, and I don't remember knowing anyone with that much of a nasty streak . Not to mention, I'd fought many hard battles on YJ and won, too. I'm surprised I wasn't a target if there was some seriously vindictive GW collector out there. If it was a collector though, I suppose it could have been a black hole collector, too. (Those crazy black-hole-collecting Duo fans! *trying to crack a bad joke with so much seriousness*).

But to echo something else you said -- I agree, everyone SHOULD be careful! Not just changing passwords, but also not using the same passwords on sites that contain sensitive data on you is a smart thing to do (like eBay and PayPal and banking sites & apps). Oversharing personal information, too -- most sites still use security questions to get to a password reset -- and a lot of people share the kind of information those questions ask about on their Facebook pages, sometimes with friends of friends of friends. It's almost too easy. (That might explain why you won't find me on Facebook or Twitter even now. I'm too paranoid! )

Back on topic... *looks at scanner* Posting in this thread reminds me that I still need to scan some cels. Argh!

[Jadeduo]

LOL well unfortunately that leaves us moonies on the table still! *sighs*. Oh well!

I hope Lunacels, and CB can turn our bad girl rep around then!

*takes out whip* Get scanning Zerospace!!

JD

[GoalieZero]

Great thread!

My OCD fluxuates randomnly and so does my work schedule, so I shift between lightning and slow. Occasionally I'll receive, scan, and post cels as soon as I get home. Other times, for instance, when I have a good amount of cels to scan and catalog (between 4-10 usually) I'll drag the process out a bit. I'll usually scan and bag the cels one day, work in Photoshop to stitch the images together throughout the week, and go through and post in bunches with detail descriptions on the weekend (at god awful hours usually). I usually don't wait longer than a week to process a cel from unpackaging to post.

It takes longer for me to start sometimes because I constantly move and rotate my cels through my Itoyas everytime I receive a new cel. This is done A) to get circulation for the cels and B) I'm insane about categorizing the cels in order (especially GW cels). The order of the cels on my gallery match the order they are placed in the Itoyas. Usually it goes by character, OVA episode, TV episode, time in episode. While it can be fun, the larger my collection gets, the longer this process takes, which is a good and bad thing I guess, but c'est la vie!

A slow updater I can understand, it's a hobby and hobbies take a significant time investment (plus being a human is hard). But while I'm only in my 2nd year of collecting, I'm not sure why a black hole collector would exist in the 1st place. A cel is art and art is to be admired and shared in my opinion. I'm sure there's the legit concerns about image thieves and cel dupers (maybe not as big a problem today) but at the same time half the fun in collecting is showing off and comparing collections right? Seems odd, but hey, everybody is a different shade of crazy in this world, ourselves included!

[sensei]

It takes longer for me to start sometimes because I constantly move and rotate my cels through my Itoyas everytime I receive a new cel. This is done A) to get circulation for the cels and B) I'm insane about categorizing the cels in order (especially GW cels).

Thanks for the post, GZ. I agree that there is much more enjoyment in sharing what you've got (and while CCS collectors were cutthroat bidders in the day, I don't recall any animosity among the bunch) than in simply having them to yourself. Kinda like high art: even private collectors routinely loan their treasures to museums for exhibitions.

But your suggestion of rotating cels is a really good idea! It's healthy for the cels, makes you really pay attention to their condition, and gives you a chance to shake up their presentation. Some cels "like" the ones on the facing page in unexpected ways.

[zerospace]

B) I'm insane about categorizing the cels in order (especially GW cels). The order of the cels on my gallery match the order they are placed in the Itoyas. Usually it goes by character, OVA episode, TV episode, time in episode. While it can be fun, the larger my collection gets, the longer this process takes, which is a good and bad thing I guess, but c'est la vie!

I have to tip my hat to you, GZ. This is EXACTLY what I want to do, myself. Right now my Itoyas are generally organized by character/mech (for my GW collection -- all else is random, because my hubby is far less organized than I am). What I'd very much like to do is sort my cels within those categories in chronological order within the series! I have screenshots and episode information for MOST of my GW collection, so doing it shouldn't be that hard.... but yet here I am, and it still isn't done.

[cutiebunny]

But while I'm only in my 2nd year of collecting, I'm not sure why a black hole collector would exist in the 1st place.

For legal reasons.

I can't speculate on the Japanese side of things, but when it comes to sketches drawn by mangaka and studio staff in the US, things are very murky. Conventions are a completely unique beast, with special privileges being awarded to those who can pay the right price for that opportunity. For example, at Anime Expo, there's an unadvertised premium badge called "Concierge" that's only given to a select few. In addition to having the ability to pay the ever increasing fee for this badge, you have to meet with the upper echelon of AX management before even being offered the honor. Japan Expo USA also had their own 'high rollers club', where French backers were being rewarded with all the artwork drawn during the event. To say that it is limited to one event or larger conventions is incorrect; The entire industry is rife with behind-closed-door dealings.

Solely speaking on my experiences alone, I have had to 1) Provide Japanese and US companies with personal information including address and ID#s, 2) Not talk about/display items on social media and 3) Sign contracts stating that I will not display/resell the items. All paperwork had to be filed out prior to the purchase. While the paperwork was more of a formality for the Japanese companies, with the US companies, it was pretty strict.

While I think the majority of BH collectors are simply because they either don't have the time nor want to spend it scanning/adding items to an online gallery, I think there are also a good number of collectors who legally can not acknowledge that these items exist.

[zerospace]

I think CB hit the nail squarely on the head on all counts. I was already mildly aware of some of what she mentioned, though not in as much detail. I've just heard many, many stories over the years. I'd wager that a lot of newbies to the hobby have no idea that this kind of stuff happens, either.

[frozentime]

I've never been a lightning updater, but I also don't think of myself as a slow updater either. I kind of pick up cels in bursts. I don't really plan it that way, but it is the way it has been happening for the last 7 years. That's probably more related to having infrequent and brief windows in which to shop, but I think there has also been some coincidence in timing the last few years. I normally get everything scanned within about a week of arrival (sometimes it may take up to 3), but I tend to hold off a little in updating my gallery until everything comes in. Sometimes that means about a month of delay for the items that come in earlier. Even if my gallery updates are staggered just a little bit (happens if something I expected to be in gets delayed), I don't mention it on AB until I feel the update is complete. Paper is a different story. I'm a black hole collector for most of my paper, unless it is original artwork. The effort is just two high, and I'm never happy with the scan results. I'm also a black hole collector for cels that I don't think are quite up a certain quality level I set for my gallery. I still enjoy many of these, but they would seem out of place in the gallery.

[lunacels]

OMG, Cutiebunny and Jadeduo, that is beyond the pale! I thought CB's story was rough enough, but then Jadeduo...I don't even know what to say. I think I would have been afraid to update ever again! All I can say is that I hope the people involved (who were clearly insane, immature, or both) have either grown up or moved on to other things. And also, it appears I took a hiatus at exactly the right time!

I never thought about updating as rubbing salt in the wound, but I can see why it might cause frustration. I suppose that's the downside of each piece of art being somewhat unique, barring sequence mates of course. I lose out on auctions all the time. I think I have a success rate of about 50%, because you never know when one is going to go sky-high (I know, I know, I've been guilty of driving some of them up into that range myself!). But I am always genuinely happy if I see a lost cel posted in someone's gallery. At least I'll have known where it's gone, and if it's someone I recognize from Beta, then I can be happy for them too!

Jadeduo, I am sorry to hear I wrested Chibi Chibi away from you! I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, since 1) there's a finite number of us around, and 2) you have excellent taste! If I see any others come up, I will shoot you a "heads up" PM...and I won't be bidding on it, because now post-Chibi-Chibi-showdown, I can repeat the immortal words of Bridesmaids' Kristen Wiig: "Help me, I'm poor." On the plus side, your cel of Eternal Sailor Moon and Chibi Chibi is actually the best one I've seen; the tones and setup are gorgeous, and what a great scene (I have admired many times)! I can't wait to see the new Chibiusa additions to your gallery...

And now, because I am terrible at staying on topic (sorry everyone), I will say I have devolved into a middle-ground updater. Work has been NUTS. But I am really going to try to get to it this weekend!