Dear Kenshin OVA fans, Need your opinions

[kittens]

A couple days ago I had friends at my place and since we just bought a 42 inchi flat screen TV, we have decided to watch Tsuioku hen......

After we watched the OVA, my friend asked me why Kenshin decided to continue killing people (until the end of war) to help the meiji government during the war..... and my hubby asked me the same question.

For me, I thought maybe he wanted to help ending war as quick as possible not as an assasin, but as a commander/fighter. But they are not really convineced.....

So I would like to ask Kenshin fans what do you think why Kenshin still continued klling at the war?

[graymouser]

I always kind of wondered about that.

I think he still believed in the cause even if he did not like the way things were done. He may have felt the need to follow it through to the end. Another possibility may be that like Shishio, once he was as deeply involved and knew as much as he did, there would not have been an easy way to just leave.

The above thoughts certainly don't explain it adequately though. Still, it doesn't bother me as much as what happens in Seisouhen. I am bothered by the explanation that his need for atonement caused him to semi-abandon his family. Once he had a child, his primary responsibility was the upbringing of that child. Its not like he couldn't find ways to help others at home. Once Kenjii was an adult, then with Kaoru's understanding, he could return to wandering. I just feel that Kenjii deserved better.

In the end, as good as a story as it is, it's still a made up tale. As long as the series is, there is bound to be a few inconsistencys and inadequate explanations. I still think it's a great show.

[shellie]

Wow, kittens... I must not have watched very closely, because I thought after she completed the cross-shaped scar and died in his arms that he quit killing from that moment on! It has been far too long since I watched RK... I obviously need to go back and watch again!

[irmgaard]

Kenshin is nothing if not a man of his word, and he already had given it in pledge to Katsura’s cause. Katsura could have released him, but not only did he NOT do so, he made the trip personally to Otsu to remind Kenshin of his duty. Fortunately for Kenshin, the battle at Toba-Fushimi was decisive enough that he felt he had discharged his obligation at that point and did not participate in the rest of the Boshin War. He then was free to keep his “no-killing, make reparations” pledge to Tomoe.

Or so it seemed to me.

*edit for typo

[Maiko]

I think that for the most part, despite what it had already cost him, Kenshin was still impassioned about the cause he was fighting for, and still believed that in the end, it would be a greater good for all mankind. Not only had he sworn to Tomoe to never pick up a sword for bloodshed again, at the same time, he believed that he would never have to, if the ideals he had for a new era and a new way of life would be brought by the war.

[kittens]

Wow, kittens... I must not have watched very closely, because I thought after she completed the cross-shaped scar and died in his arms that he quit killing from that moment on! It has been far too long since I watched RK... I obviously need to go back and watch again!

Heeheehee You are sooooooooooooo mising out

I kinda toward the opinion between irmgaard and Maiko...... I think it might be both. Definitely he thought the ideals which katusra had inspired him and he believed that this was the way to bring people peace..... But also he had always had this ideals before killing tomoe.... So I do feel that there might be more......

Also I think Kenshin is a man of his word..... He promised Katsura for his service. But also I feel that this is not enough as well.....

Also one more thing bothers me is that Kenshin said to Katsura that he will serve him b/c tokugawa government used tomoe as a pond. So he said he wanted to make them pay for that.... It sounds totally not like him (I think this words are more bothering me..... ) In the book when he was depressed, he did not stand up for revenge. But he did for helping people. This IS his truth. I do feel a bit conflicts.....

[Maiko]

I think that was Kenshin's way of staying he still held the same beliefs and ideals; already Kenshin was of the belief that the current system was corrupt and taking advantage of the innocent people and citizens of his country. The Tokugawa "using Tomoe as a pawn" was in his mind, a perfect illustration of what he was originally fighting for- to put out of power those that he believed were abusing the citizens all this time. I don't necessarily think Kenshin was stating he was out for revenge, but that he was basically saying, 'Look what happened to Tomoe. This is what I have been talking about all along. This is why I have been fighting. And this is why I must continue to fight until those responsible are removed from power. Only then will I stop.'

[kittens]

I see.... I can see that Maiko

[irmgaard]

Ah Kittens! You have inspired me to dig out my old tapes to revisit what Katsura asked for, and what Kenshin agreed to (via subtitles of course).

Katsura; “I’m going to be straight with you. Are you willing to kill people? There’s no point in mincing words. I will need you to murder people for me. However, in order to create a new world we must first destroy the old one. It is not pleasant, but it needs to be done.”
“You told me you wanted to use your skills to protect people. I am asking you if I can borrow those skills. Will you kill people in order to create a new world? Will you do it?”

Kenshin’s response; “If there is a new world that can be created by my sword, a world where anyone can live peacefully and without fear, if my arm can create that world, I will…I will serve as Heaven’s Justice. I will kill!”
In between Katsura’s call and Kenshin’s response we are treated to the scene of his first killing as a hitokiri, and the end of Kenshin’s answer is cut with shots of more of his assassinations and accompanied by ominous music, so it is fairly obvious that he has made a real Faustian bargain here! To kill at Katsura’s command until a new world is created.

Then, later, we have Kenshin’s promise made to Tomoe in Otsu; “However, I can’t stop killing, yet. The new world will come soon. Once it has arrived I will seek ways to protect people that will not involve taking lives. I will also look for a way to atone for the terrible things I have done.”
This fairly well summarizes Kenshin’s current obligation, as well as his plans for the future. Of course his future plans include Tomoe, but he will not be allowed that, just as he will not be able to keep the last part of his promise to her, to “protect her and her happiness”.

After Tomoe’s death Katsura comes to see Kenshin, apologizes and frees Kenshin from the most odious part of his duty to him; “I found the real spy and have trained a new assassin. This new boy will handle assassinations from now on.” But he won’t completely release Kenshin as he continues; “Even so, we still require your skills. The Shinsengumi and the Bakufu hunt Patriots with renewed determination. If we cannot fight them off with greater ferocity our cause will be lost and we will be executed.”

Kenshin tells Katsura that he understands and says; “I will lend my sword to your cause. Tomoe saved my life. I think she knew I would have to fight once more. I believe that.” (well that is what he told her ) “ However, once the battle is won”(here we have Kenshin’s definition of the arrival of the “new world” and when he feels he will have discharged his obligation)

Katsura interjects; “You will withdraw from our clan?”

But Kenshin corrects his misunderstanding and says; “I will never kill again” His famous “no killing” vow!

My subtitled edition doesn’t have Kenshin say anything about revenge or how Tomoe was used by the Shogunate.

*edit for missing letter

[kittens]

My subtitled edition doesn’t have Kenshin say anything about revenge or how Tomoe was used by the Shogunate.

I should watch in subtitle.... We watched in English translations..... since all of my friends do not understand Japanese and they prefered......

In english version he said what I wrote above, so maybe the translator must changed it.... (since it is very critical moments for Kenshin's life so I wish they did not change so much

[Olivier]

I understood this part differently actually.
To me, after losing Tomoe, he felt so empty and lonely he could barely think at all. He killed for no reason, because he was asked to, maybe even hoping he would get killed.
He did this until he found the courage to decide he would start doing some good around him without killing anymore.

[irmgaard]

He did this until he found the courage to decide he would start doing some good around him without killing anymore.

I think that is contradicted by the dialogue he delivers to Tomoe when they are by the fire in their little house in Otsu. Before Kenshin knows the part he played in her past or that their little peaceful respite is coming to a terrible end.

"The new world will come soon. Once it has arrived I will seek ways to protect people that will not involve taking lives. I will also look for a way to atone for the terrible things I have done.”

He had already decided on his future course of action before her death.

[Elfstalker]

Now here's a nail in the wheels of thought:

It's off topic, but I was wondering about things related to this after reading the thread.

Suppose Kenshin took his Master Hiko's advice and STAYED to complete his training, including the secret technique. Now, what do you think Kenshin would have done?

Would he have killed? Would he feel remorse? He probably wouln't be working for Katsura and his cause, but what would Kenshin be doing once his training was over?

What do you think his philosophy is regarding taking lives in the name of good?

I would think he would wander the war-torn land just like Hiko did when he found the orphaned Kenshin (Shinta). He probably would only kill 'when needed' just like his master. But would Kenshin PERSONALITY be the same as when he did join Katsura?

Do you think he would still be as sad? More happy?

I'm just wondering what 'another' Kenshin would have been like had he not chosen to join Katsura's cause.

[irmgaard]

What a fabulous, fascinating question!

I don't think he could be a free sword because Japan changed so much during the Restoration. Even Hiko had to become a potter

I'd bet he'd be racked by guilt for NOT having done anything to help during the Bakumatsu or Boshin Wars, and I don't even want to think about how he would feel if he learned the Amakakeru Ryu No Hirameki and thus killed Hiko!!

No, I think just as Hiko said to him near the beginning of the OVA, he will always remember those lives he couldn't protect......
He was already traumatized and full of misplaced feelings of guilt and inadequacy when he began training with Hiko. And I don't think Hiko, with his belittling comments, would have helped him work though that. Kenshin probably wouldn't have been so afraid of his own anger though. That would be different!


I do hope somehow he'd meet Kaoru!
Maybe at a Kendo demonstration?

[kittens]

I would agree with irmgaard I think he would not be afraid of his anger as much as he does. He would have more balanced feelings.

I do hope somehow he'd meet Kaoru!
Maybe at a Kendo demonstration?

Oh yeah! I hope so as well

Here is another question. If he would have not left and have taken Hiko's advise, would kenshin become Hiko Seijuro?