Beta Awards 07: Winners Announced

Area to post questions, comments, and discussions regarding this annual contest.
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cutiebunny
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Post by cutiebunny »

Layouts can also be for non-CG animated stuff. Some cels do come with their original layouts, and I see no reason as to why LOs of non-CG artwork couldn't be submitted. I'm glad that the Layout catagory has been, thus far, well received. Eventually, we'll find that collectors are going to have more CG stuff, so, I can see an eventual transition happening as long as there are collectors who enjoy new shows and purchase that artwork. So, consider the LO catagory a bit of what the Beta Awards might be like in, say, 5 or 10 years down the road.

Last year, awards were availble for all catagories in 1st-3rd prize. I'd like to keep that as well, instead of the system used in the 2006 awards, where there was a 1st and runner up prize. That way, more people get awards. Similiar to 2007's rule, if a catagory receives less than 3 entries, it will be eliminated.

What we could do in lieu of that is create an 'other' catagory, where, specific types of artwork(such as harmony cels) are lumped together with other items that may not fit into any other catagory. The only problem I see here is that there may be too many different artistic approaches and thus make it difficult to chose 1. Or, instead of having a harmony catagory, we would allow harmony items to be submitted in a catagory fitting the scene.

While I don't mind having different voting for CG and Cels per catagory, the only problem I see is in conducting the voting. If you're only allowed to vote for 1 item per catagory, then, you would have to choose between a cel based piece and CG one. If we open the voting up to 2 votes per catagory(you'd vote on 1 CG and 1 cel/colored piece), that might make things more complicated, especially with the 'less than 3 entries' rule.

I like the catagory of bank artwork because there are many collectors who have them and it really is a niche catagory. We'll probably have to collectively decide as to what we consider a 'bank' item(ie. Cels from Cardcaptor Sakura with Sakura summoning her key or using her wand are generally considered to be bank cels even though cel has Sakura in a different outfit every episode.) and what we do not consider a bank.

Adding a injured/dying catagory is ok with me, but now we're up to 30 catagories. If we want to add any more catagories, we should probably look at pruning some catagories as well.
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zerospace
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Post by zerospace »

Well... the problem with the layout category is that if you allow any layout to be entered, its no longer for CG art. That notwithstanding, putting sketches up against cels -- most of the time, the cels are going to win. So its a losing situation for those who have mostly CG art.

I just think it would be nice to see a change from previous years. Isn't it about time we give some more love to the paper side of things? So many of us have gone over to collecting it, after all. A single category for sketches vs. 29 for cels just seems so wrong. The idea would be to allow 2 votes per category (one cel, one CG/paper) - otherwise, why bother? Logistically, it isn't that much more difficult... and, you can always double the number of allowed entries for those entering cel and CG for the different categories. So, rather than 5 entries total .. make it 5 cel and 5 sketch. Or something like that.

I guess I sound like a broken record here, but seriously -- making this happen as far as organizing and putting a site together isn't as daunting as it seems. I've done it before (and with no help other than vote counting, I might add). So... I guess I'm volunteering to help with the tech side of things - that is, if my help is wanted. I think every year I end up on the sidelines making suggestions or offering a bit of tech assistance to those making the site... perhaps this year it's time I step up myself. ;)

Also, would it make a difference if I said submissions could be automated a bit by allowing entries to be directly uploaded via a web form? The form could automatically check file size, image size, and everything else you'd want (of course, all entries would be finalized after the organizer(s) put their seal of approval on them). Images exceeding dimensional or file size limits could be resized on the spot. It would be SO much easier on everyone! ;) (and a heckuva lot less time consuming!). The site would need literally a matter of a day (maybe less) before viewing & voting could be opened... rather than day(s) or a week. I would probably need no more than a week or so to make all the forms and pages... and that includes time for testing/bug fixing.
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Post by samiamew »

zerospace wrote:I guess I sound like a broken record here, but seriously -- making this happen as far as organizing and putting a site together isn't as daunting as it seems. I've done it before (and with no help other than vote counting, I might add). So... I guess I'm volunteering to help with the tech side of things - that is, if my help is wanted. I think every year I end up on the sidelines making suggestions or offering a bit of tech assistance to those making the site... perhaps this year it's time I step up myself. ;)
You get my 'seal of approval' ...... for what it's worth => maybe 50yen :wink:
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Killua
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Post by Killua »

I just don't think it's true that CG artwork is so obviously dominated by cels. If you go back to last year's awards, the vast majority of the submissions were cels, probably because that's most of the artwork that people own. As more people own sketches and what-not more of that will be submitted. Last year sketches took home several awards. If you go and look at the categories and compare the entries to the winners, the selections seem rather fair. It doesn't look like any entry was screwed just because it was a sketch instead of a cel. Sure, you might've wanted one in particular to be awarded, but no result seemed inherently unfair. If some people think cels look better than sketches, well, that's why there's voting in place. Everybody's opinion gets an equal weight.

Also, it wouldn't be a single category for sketches and 29 for cels. It'd be 29 for cels and sketches and 1 for sketches (actually almost 2 for sketches because animated really lends itself to them). And we could add 1 or 2 more for sketches easily. Perhaps an original settei category, perhaps a simple genga category.
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Moop
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Post by Moop »

cutiebunny wrote:The only problem I see here is that there may be too many different artistic approaches and thus make it difficult to chose 1.
I think that that's actually similar to the reason the awards have, with the exception of 'hanken' (which are not production art) and harmony, studiously avoided the "general" categories, such as 'pan' or 'portrait'...or 'bank'. At least harmony cels share an art style. What do banks have in common besides being used more than once in their respective animes? :shrug I guess I just think that if you're going to move into such generalities, there are other category choices which would benefit more entrants.

'Layout' seems more useable, though, since not only do a lot of people have them, but they really don't fit well into any other category.
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cutiebunny
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Post by cutiebunny »

You bring up a good point about bank cels, Moop, and one that I did not consider. I would hope that any potential votes, though, would be able to see beyond their favorite anime and vote on the emotion and/or artistic execution in the item.

Zero, I'm not quite sure I understand your issue concerning the use of layouts from cel based anime in a layout only catagory. There will always be some people, regardless of catagory, that will vote for any and all artwork from their favorite anime, regardless of what exactly that piece of artwork is. I would actually think that this would work more in CG's favor as the very popular animes(Naruto, Bleach) are all CG. I've never seen an anime layout that was not drawn on paper, but, perhaps there are some animation layouts that were done on cels? I don't think it would be difficult to limit a layout catagory to simply items that were drawn on paper. Similiar to catagories that reflect a special technique or type of artwork used(harmony & hanken catagories), we could also impose a rule that the LO catagory is the only place where LO artwork could be submitted.


But I'd love to have you work with the design of the site. Your ideas to the uploading process are very good. :)

A catagory for original settei, though, I am concerned about as most of the settei on the market are copies. The same goes for storyboards as well; I can only think of a handful of original storyboards that RS/Beta members own. Depending on the quality of the scan and one's familiarity with settei artwork, it might be difficult to distinguish if what is being submitted is an original or a high quality copy. You could counteract that by only allowing the colored character/scene sheets, but that might limit the catagory even more.

Here's a thought - since we have some catagories that feature 'specialized' artwork, should we make them rotating catagories? What I mean is, one year we have 'harmony' and 'hanken' catagories, and then the next year, say...'settei', 'genga' and 'storyboards'? That would increase the amount of participants per year as it would allow them about 2 years to locate items that fit those catagories, thus increasing the amount of submissions?
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Moop
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Post by Moop »

cutiebunny wrote:I would hope that any potential votes, though, would be able to see beyond their favorite anime and vote on the emotion and/or artistic execution in the item.
But that's just the point. What exactly are people supposed to vote on? There are no unifying emotions or artistic executions to tie the cels together. They might as well be spread out among other categories. Still...if you really want to throw in a generalized category, I'd think it would be one that more people can participate in. :^^:
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Post by miz ducky »

i agree with a "death/dying" category. i just don't think that it's at all the same thing as "sad".
i agree with a "layout" category. i think there enough people who have them that we would get a nice variety of entries.

i agree that "bank" is very niche, and therefore shouldn't be a category of it's own. they can be submitted in the other categories.
maybe make them part of the hanken/harmony category. :wink:
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Killua
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Post by Killua »

Hmm, do we need a "Children" category? Seems to me that Cute and the other categories would cover it. If we want to increase CG-oriented categories, we might want to cut it to make room.
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cutiebunny
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Post by cutiebunny »

Killua wrote:Hmm, do we need a "Children" category? Seems to me that Cute and the other categories would cover it. If we want to increase CG-oriented categories, we might want to cut it to make room.
I disagree. Children doesn't exactly fit in either 'male' or 'female' catagories. The purpose of both of these is to vote on an attractive specimen of these genders. Throwing children into the foray makes the voting awkward. The children catagory consists of children doing childlike things, some of which could not qualify as being cute. 'Cute' has always been a catagory typically for animal related artwork and 'Group', well, is self explanitory. So, for those with artwork with one child in it, there's nothing for them to submit their items to. As I recall, 'children' was a very popular catagory last year with many entrants. I'd hate to see it go in lieu of a 'genga', which could be submitted to many other catagories as well.

As I mentioned earlier, what we could do is have specialized artwork styles(Harmony) be rotated on a biyearly schedule with another niche catagory, such as maybe original storyboards, settei or even CG-only genga. Something like that would give a large boost to newer CG collectors and allow for a greater amount of submissions as entrants now have two years to find something that fits each catagory.

Ok, so reaction is rather mixed when it comes to 'bank' being an additional catagory, but all voices so far have been positive to layout being a catagory. 'Injured/Death/Dying' also appears to being well received thus far. Assuming 'bank' is nixed, the total amount of catagories is 29.

Keep those ideas and opinions rolling in. I think everyone is doing a great job of brainstorming :)
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klet
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Post by klet »

Anyone want to let me know which page the discussions for 08 began? I'd rather not read through all of these pages . . . X| Could we possibly get a new thread for 08, or are we too far gone by this point? :)
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Post by Cloud »

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Post by Leedz »

I think the 08 stuff started on page 29. I think. And it's looking like a new 08 thread won't be started until the details are ironed out and the organizers are ready for entries. ... At least, that's my prediction.

I had said earlier that I was neutral on banks being a catagory, partially because I wasn't familiar with them. After listening to both sides discuss it, though, I find myself on the side that doesn't support the catagory. Simply being reused within the course of production doesn't really define it to an artistic style or theme, and the catagory would probably end up very jumbled. I think bank cels could just as easily be placed into other catagories based on either art, theme, or both.

Also, I forgot to mention sooner that I do support the death/injury catagory. That IS a pretty big role in most animation. I'm surprised it wasn't a catagory already, really!
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Post by irmgaard »

Leedz wrote: Also, I forgot to mention sooner that I do support the death/injury catagory. That IS a pretty big role in most animation. I'm surprised it wasn't a catagory already, really!
Well, I won with an injury/death image last time (and it was a sketch,too! :wink: ) in the "Shocked" category..

I also think they have appeared in "Sorrow"...

and a lot could go into "Action" ...

so it's not like they haven't been seen...

I love the emotion categories, just because I love looking at a whole page of "Rage" and the like... :D

A whole page of death.... 8O
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Post by zerospace »

Ok... let me clarify what I said about the CG thing a little, since I think I'm being misunderstood. X| First, when I say "sketch" I mean CG... since those shows have no prayer of competing quite on the same level as cel shows (at least, IMO).

What I'm saying is that it seems like CG art gets the short end of the stick because even if you allow it to be entered in every category, pitted against cels, the majority of the time, the cels get the votes simply because the cels look better (after all, they are in color). I realize that that isn't the case 100% of the time, but I do think it would be nice to see the sketches have more than a couple of categories in which to compete. IMO (and you all may disagree), I feel that the sketches deserve the same category list as cels, but shouldn't be placed in direct competition with the cels, because really... its like comparing apples and oranges. Sketches and cels aren't really in the same league -- after all, I know I look for totally different attributes when I buy sketches vs. what I'm looking for when I buy cels.

If folks disagree, I'll drop it. It isn't a big deal to me, I just thought I'd bring it up since we're early in the game ;).

And CB, I'd be more than happy to work on the site. I think it would be nice to see a smoother (and easier on the organizer(s)) entry process among other things ;). I would also be more than willing to allow anything I create to be used over and over by future organizers, if it works out well. ;)
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