2009 Anime-Beta Awards - AWARDS UP!

Moop · Post by **Moop** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:24 am

cutiebunny wrote:But, as you can see from the last few pages, if you completely ignore the community and their wants, you're going to get a lot of heated feedback.

An extremely frustrated *Argh*! Opinions were not solicited regarding repros - but that's hardly unprecedented. Obviously I shouldn't have chosen that particular example, because you're being defensive about the former, rather than the focusing on the latter. Is the point I'm trying to make really so unclear?

Many organizers have taken it upon themselves to make fundamental changes...but there is so much righteous indignation storming around right now that anyone would have thought this group is the first to try such a thing.

And that's it. I said that I was going against what is clearly popular opinion, but hey, unlike pretty much everyone else, I'm unbiased on the grounds that I have no interest in entering any art. The immediate personal attacks simply struck me as childish and pointless, not to mention historically unwarranted. What the hell kind of way is that to approach something that's supposed to be all in fun?

But I rather hope that the worst is over anyway, so, for me, finis.

Angelic-Lair · Post by **Angelic-Lair** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:03 am

Okay... let's try this again with a bit more tact and diplomacy.

Here are some of the changes we (Angelic-Lair, DragonShiryu & Starfighter) were hoping to implement for the 2009 Beta Awards:

1) Tweak the female and male categories and their descriptions. The original descriptions seemed a bit vague. Why not judge them on popularity?
Example:
#1 Female - Anime-Beta's favorite female character of the year.
#1 Male - Anime-Beta's favorite male character of the year.

2) Change robot to mecha, which would include anything made out of metal. There are very sweet spaceships shots that don't have a category to go in right now.

3) Merge shikishi and comic/manga into original art. Since black and white media is excluded, might it not make more sense to merge them together? We'd hate to see them eliminated if they separately have too few entries.

4) Split rilezu into its own category. There has been a lot of arguments on both sides, so we thought we'd suggest that it be added as a possible new category to the poll, and members will have a chance to decide.

Thoughts?

Addendum:
Based on the community's input, we have added a 2-day viewing period on December 14 & 15. Two days should be enough, but let us know if that is a problem.

Nat.R · Post by **Nat.R** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:14 am

hello,

Always 5 categories by person?

cutiebunny · Post by **cutiebunny** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:27 am

Moop wrote:An extremely frustrated *Argh*! Opinions were not solicited regarding repros - but that's hardly unprecedented. Obviously I shouldn't have chosen that particular example, because you're being defensive about the former, rather than the focusing on the latter. Is the point I'm trying to make really so unclear?

The entirety of my last post was not directed to you. The first paragraph was as I attempted to explain to you that Repros and Rilezu were accepted during the 2008 awards and that Angelic-Lair just copied/pasted the list used last year including those categories. I explained to you how that decision came about.

The rest of my post, I addressed the points that WC made regarding what organizers for the Beta Awards do. I apologize if my words upset you, but, as this discussion has already shown, there are several members who are interested in the handling of the awards but have no plans on submitting any artwork.

So, please, get off your soapbox.

Now, on for Angelic Lair's new post...

I would hate to see the male and female categories be eliminated. The category largely revolves on what the entrant/voter considers 'feminine' and 'masculine'. That definition depends on each person, especially with the amount of bishounen men running around that always make an appearance in that category. There's a lot of great artwork of men and women who can not be submitted to any other category.

Unless, of course, you're going to have a "Sexy as Hell" category

As for tweeking robot, my vote is for tweaking the acessory category instead. Make it "thing", "object" or something of that nature. That way, you can submit artwork of anything - swords, ships, magical girl items, etc. Limiting accessory to what a character is holding limits the amount of artwork that can be submitted to that category.

I think shikishi being merged with comic artwork could work. Perhaps unde the label of "industry artwork" or something of that nature.

And finally, rilezu - the problem with giving rilezu its own category is that you won't have established a voting criteria. Unlike harmony, where you're voting on the artistic style, you can't do that with rilezu. Voting on the most 'beautiful' is difficult because there are so many styles, emotions, special effects, etc. that this type of artwork can feature. Plus, it's a subjective term. Rather, if you're going to give rilezu a seperate category, you need to spell out what a viewer will be looking for when judging the artwork.

syan · Post by **syan** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:57 pm

Thanks for reverting the list back, and then opening it up for discussion.

I think #3 makes sense, especially since those categories do get a relatively small number of entries.

I don't agree with #1 - this isn't supposed to be a popularity contest. Heck, we already had a favorite character contest this year, run by DT. I still like to judge on artistic merit. A lot of times I vote for characters/series that I know nothing about, but the image defines what 'female' or 'male' is to me.

cutiebunny wrote:
Moop wrote:An extremely frustrated *Argh*! Opinions were not solicited regarding repros - but that's hardly unprecedented. Obviously I shouldn't have chosen that particular example, because you're being defensive about the former, rather than the focusing on the latter. Is the point I'm trying to make really so unclear?
The entirety of my last post was not directed to you. The first paragraph was as I attempted to explain to you that Repros and Rilezu were accepted during the 2008 awards and that Angelic-Lair just copied/pasted the list used last year including those categories. I explained to you how that decision came about.

Actually rilezu and repros were allowed in the 2007 awards as well. So it wasn't really a new concept for 2008. I'm still for having rilezu/repros as acceptable entries for all applicable categories, because there isn't much criteria to judge on besides image. I'd even extend that to hanken, since that's pretty much a which image looks the nicest category.

Charon · Post by **Charon** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:41 pm

I'll toss in a suggestion for Best Scene/Set-Up/Composition concentrating on the overall aesthetic of a complete setup (instead of being focused on something raging/being actiony/otherwise expressing another category)

I'll also agree with making the categories Mecha and Original Art more inclusive. By the same token, I like Male & Female's current vague description better as that makes those categories more inclusive (otherwise cels of unpopular characters may have nowhere to go)

wELCOME cONSUMER · Post by **wELCOME cONSUMER** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:18 pm

Syan's right about when rilezu and repros made their reappearance

A good argument for why they should be included is to welcome in new series. We have to face the fact that we are all fossil collectors. To exclude rilezu and repros would be to exclude progress, joyfully remaining stuck in our ways. I personally don't collect them and therefore have no personal agenda with this suggestion. It's just a commonsense approach to the evolution of this hobby. Plastic is a thing of the past in the production process.

Male and Female were deliberately made vague to combat all of the back and forth arguing about those categories. To call it cute or sexy or feminine or masculine opens the floodgates to so much dispute. When it was "Masculine", people couldn't submit bishonen characters because they are the antithesis of masculinity (and would probably do better in "Feminine"...heh).

As a collector of robots, both in terms of cels and toys and other nerdy media, I absolutely disdain the notion of making the category open to "anything made out of metal." So a fire hydrant, a sword, a spoon would suddenly qualify?

Oh, god, please, no.

If you want, try having a "Vehicle" category to encompass spacecrafts, UFOs, cars, wagons, boats, whatever, instead. But please don't mess with the Robot category. Yes, some categories garner few entries, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should be tweaked. It simply means that it is a niche. The overabundance of one category doesn't make the smaller categories less important. Otherwise, let's continue down this path of monoculture till there is just one category: Cel.

I present this same argument against merging shikishi and comic/manga categories. Again, just because they are small categories doesn't mean the people who collect these particular items want to be arbitrarily smushed in with other highly unrelated categories. It's insensitive. These things don't need "fixing."

Since when did having so many choices become such a burden? Isn't that the challenge of voting in this event?

I know the same point is being brought up a lot and I must ask something: when was the last time a category received so few entries it had to be eliminated? I remember it happening in the 3rd Beta Awards, I think it was something funny like "Worst Cel" category. But I honestly can't remember it happening since then. I may be totally wrong about that, which is why I'm asking. But why are we so worried about this happening? I thought it was rather rare...

irmgaard · Post by **irmgaard** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:37 pm

I believe Repro cels were not in the awards prior to 2008. Rilezu were allowed in 2007, as well as 2006, however. I think this was done because Repro cels are several copies of the exact same image, rather than being sequence mates like Rilezu. There are also Repro cels made of actual images which exist as production cels.

2007 Awards:
http://www.anime-beta.com/phpBB/viewtop ... 10&start=0

2006 Awards:
http://www.anime-beta.com/phpBB/viewtop ... 46&start=0

Edit: Added links to the threads with the rules for those events.

kizu · Post by **kizu** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:05 pm

Ah... *sigh* I didn't want to post more but I must since this is a genre that I love and admire. With regards to robots... I think it's not a good idea to include just anything metal nor just any object.

Robots have always been a major part of anime and deserve a category of their own. There are real robots (gundam/patlabor series) and super robots (voltron/daimos) for one... There are "true character" robots too aka optimus prime (transformers) even astro boy. Most of these robots also have personality... while Super robots embody the values its pilot possesess and so many identify both with the pilot and machine as heroes or villains. Some (especially Super robot fans) do not view robots as just "things" no matter how the genre has evolved into "real" robots where the robot is primarily a tool. Even real robots however to a limited extent and execution mirror the pilot and so share the "super robot" theme.

It would be a great disservice to the genre to lump them into "metal things", even if they were technically "mecha".

I would suggest having a separate category for spaceships (or metal vehicles) aka non-robot mecha? and if "things" really need to be included like wands or swords, then maybe create another category or put them in the accessory category (if that's still included).

Angelic-Lair · Post by **Angelic-Lair** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:00 pm

We would like to thank everyone for their input so far.

The community response for the male/female categories was quite unanimous, so we believe that it is best to leave it as it is.

We also would like to correct a mistake on our part. It was a poor choice of words to say "anything made out of metal" to describe the mecha category we were proposing. We meant to include anything big and mechanical (robots, spaceships, etc). Please rest assured we were not considering including swords or anything similar. The accessory category is already present to include the smaller objects.

Please continue voicing your opinions or concerns on the proposed changes. We would appreciate it very much. It will help in making an educated decision.

Thanks!

GuyvarIII · Post by **GuyvarIII** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:51 am

Angelic-Lair wrote:
3) Merge shikishi and comic/manga into original art. Since black and white media is excluded, might it not make more sense to merge them together? We'd hate to see them eliminated if they separately have too few entries.

This is my opinion, but â€¦

If you are worried about not having enough entries in certain categories, why not include black and white entries with the color ones? Leave it up to the participants to decide whether or not their production art (paint, pencil â€¦ or whatever) is a competitive image. That way you wonâ€™t have to make any decision on how colorful a drawing has to be in order to be included in the awards, or tell anyone they canâ€™t participate because they donâ€™t have the correct kind of item.

Even though there was a separate sketch awards, that competition didnâ€™t allow any cels or paintings â€¦ so it isnâ€™t the same thing.

As seen in past awards, any image (despite its media or amount of color) can be a competitive entry. Last year in the Villainous category, first place was a sketch, second place was a repro, and third place was a production cel (http://betaawards08.zero-space.net/winn ... Villainous).

Unless youâ€™re worried about receiving too many entries, why limit yourself?

wELCOME cONSUMER · Post by **wELCOME cONSUMER** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:22 am

What are the size restrictions for entries? I would like to go ahead and prepare my entries now since that submission deadline is coming soon. Maybe you should post the rules now in the first post?

cutiebunny · Post by **cutiebunny** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:30 am

GuyvarIII wrote:
Even though there was a separate sketch awards, that competition didnâ€™t allow any cels or paintings â€¦ so it isnâ€™t the same thing.

Because we already had the sketch awards this year. The sketch awards were purposely done to give sketches and other black/white media their time to shine. The cel awards are for painted media.

We had a category for fan-art during the sketch awards,but since it only received one entry, we had to eliminate it.

In other words, it doesn't make sense, mid-stream, to allow sketches and other black/white media, to compete again in another award period this year. Now, if the community chooses to eliminate the Sketch Awards for 2010 in favor of one awards session later in the year, that can be done. However, the last two times we polled about separating the cels and sketches into their own awards, they both were either evenly split or in favor of the separated awards. Additionally, the sketch awards worked out for those members who, due to their schoolwork or career, couldn't take the time to enter the awards in the winter.

I also disagree with you concerning sketches being able to stand on equal par with the cels. Generally, your attention is grabbed by something colorful. That's just human nature. There have been some dynamite sketches that were submitted to past combined awards, yet they traditionally do not fair as well as their cel counterparts. Yes, the sketches did win some awards, but only a small share of the ones being offered.

Angelic-Lair · Post by **Angelic-Lair** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:07 pm

Hello beta members!

1) The rules are up! We apologize for the delay. Please keep in mind that a few categories might be added or modified in the next few days. Two polls should be started very soon, so keep an eye on them.

2) Following the community's input, we have decided to go ahead with the merging of comic/manga art and shikishi into industry art (we thank cutiebunny for the name!

). A new rule this year is that original art, unless it is cel-based, must be colored in order to enter.

3) The 2009 Beta Awards website should be up within the next few days to allow users to become familiar with its design and functionality, and to make any necessary changes.

Thanks!

wELCOME cONSUMER · Post by **wELCOME cONSUMER** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:25 pm

Wait a minute... I'm totally confused now. How can you exclude "black and white" media when manga panels, aside from special ones, are exclusively black and white? The same is true for the autographs and shikishi. Color in those mediums is extremely rare. This doesn't make any sense to me. And I still don't see why you are combining two totally unrelated categories as a result. Comic panels are not at all like shikishi, so how are people supposed to vote on these categories? Why not go ahead and combine Male and Female while you're at it.

I prefer the way BAs has been for some time now, with categories like Comic Art, Fan Art and now the shikishi. I'm not really concerned about what happened during the Sketch Awards. I didn't participate and don't plan to participate in them. While I can understand separating sketches in a regular category, like Rage, to give them equal footing, the same is not true for the comic category. Comic art is always going to be ink and paper, or there abouts, so there is no need to separate them for the sake of equality. There, paper is going up against other paper. Which is why labeling this the "beta cel awards" is a misnomer.

Hardly anyone is posting in this thread and I realize now you are attempting to rush through this process because the deadlines are approaching, but proposing a radical change like that and then making a final decision 24 hours later is not wise. You're not giving the community a chance to voice their opinion in response to your ideas, unless there is behind the scenes stuff going on. Seriously, you posted these ideas Saturday and now you're finalizing things on Sunday?

Why not have a poll about combining those categories or something? There just doesn't seem to be any care for the smaller, niche categories.