2009 Anime-Beta Awards - AWARDS UP!

Angelic-Lair · Post by **Angelic-Lair** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:44 pm

The black and white versus colored original art had been brought up and discussed in the original 2009 beta awards thread:

http://www.anime-beta.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=26563

We merely followed the consensus that came out of that discussion, which was that black and white original art should be entered in the sketch awards, while colored original art or shikishi should be entered in the cel awards.

If the community would like to vote on that decision, or to vote on combining all original art together, we are more than happy to provide that opportunity. As you said though, we are on a tight deadline. You and a few other members have started asking for the rules and guidelines to be finalized. If we wait any longer, we will have to change the timeline and the awards will likely go into 2010.

If the board wishes for the timeline to be extended so they can have more time to voice their opinions, we can certainly put that in place.

wELCOME cONSUMER · Post by **wELCOME cONSUMER** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:37 pm

Have you read a manga before? If you have, then you know they are black and white comics. Therefore, how do you expect manga panels to be eligible for the Comic category if you exclude B&W art?

Belldandy16 · Post by **Belldandy16** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:30 pm

wELCOME cONSUMER wrote:Have you read a manga before? If you have, then you know they are black and white comics. Therefore, how do you expect manga panels to be eligible for the Comic category if you exclude B&W art?

but arent these just supposed to be "animation cel awards"?â€¦
â€¦how did comics ever come into play?â€¦
â€¦just wondering

wELCOME cONSUMER · Post by **wELCOME cONSUMER** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:53 pm

Many collectors on this board collect more than just animation cels, as evidenced in part by the emancipation of sketches receiving their own awards. There are other aspects to consider, such as storyboards and settings. Most animation originates from a written source, such as a comic or novel. The BAs are a showcase and homage to these varied components. There has been a comic presence in the awards for a while and it's a category that some people enjoy looking at as much as participating in. My point is, if the category is to exist at all, out of respect for those collectors of such items, you cannot simply banish B&W art from this event.

It's easy to amputate categories you don't care about but is that fair to those people who regularly submit entries and enjoy voting in those categories?

You can reason that comics don't belong, but then you have to turn an eye towards all "non-cel" media if you do that. There is more present than you realize. Background paintings are not cels and Fan Art is not an animation cel... it could go on and on. It seems the main agenda is pruning and like GuyvarIII said, why limit ourselves so much?

Angelic-Lair · Post by **Angelic-Lair** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:26 am

We've given this fair consideration, WC. It is not about "amputating" categories that we don't care about.

To quote cutiebunny:

We already had the sketch awards this year. The sketch awards were purposely done to give sketches and other black/white media their time to shine. The cel awards are for painted media.

In other words, it doesn't make sense, mid-stream, to allow sketches and other black/white media, to compete again in another award period this year. Now, if the community chooses to eliminate the Sketch Awards for 2010 in favor of one awards session later in the year, that can be done.

Unless someone else has something new to add, the discussion of this matter is done.

That being said...

We are still interested in hearing further discussion on the merit or lack of merit in the changes proposed in the robot category. We've already heard your point, WC, and yours as well, Kizu. We've also heard from Charon, cutiebunny, DragonShiryu and Starfighter.

If no one else comments, we'll have to base our decision on what members and organizers have said so far.

We'd also like to remind everyone that there will be two polls started later today (we'll post the links in this thread once the polls are up and running) to get community opinion regarding the potential addition of award categories and the handling of rilezu/repros and hankens.

We would encourage everyone who has an opinion on either matter to take part in these polls, as they will help us to finalize the categories for the 2009 Anime-Beta Awards.

Thanks!

wELCOME cONSUMER · Post by **wELCOME cONSUMER** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:09 am

Angelic-Lair wrote:We've given this fair consideration, WC. It is not about "amputating" categories that we don't care about.

Good for you, laying down the law. But how is it decided, exactly? The final word is what? You're having Comic and Shikishi together? But excluding B&W media? Have you looked at previous year's entries? Almost all of them are B&W.

I wonder if people who actually collect these things think you're giving "fair consideration" in these decisions.

cutiebunny, not everything that occurred in the sketch awards can and should directly effect the BAs. The two should be separate entities with rules not always formulated in response to the other. We can still easily justify having B&W art in the BAs.

zerospace · Post by **zerospace** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:08 am

On the current subject of Comic/Manga artwork & the whole B&W debate:

not everything that occurred in the sketch awards can and should directly effect the BAs. The two should be separate entities with rules not always formulated in response to the other. We can still easily justify having B&W art in the BAs.

If this is true, then what is the purpose of separating the sketch awards? By this rationale, sketches that won in the sketch awards are also then allowed to be entered into the cel awards later that same year. This would follow logically if you treat the two contests as completely separate and independent entities. If the sketch awards continue to take place (and I don't know if they will), then it seems only natural that the cel awards should also evolve to accomodate them.

Sure you can make the argument that anything that wins in the sketch awards cannot be entered into the cel awards, but if the two contests are to be completely separate, then you must also allow any winners from one into the other. This would also follow for sketches that win cel awards -- that these may also be entered into the sketch awards the following year.

You are suggesting that the regular Beta Awards should continue as though nothing has changed, and yet that makes very little sense to me if the sketch awards continue. Now, if the sketch awards die after this year, then yes, I would most certainly agree that sketch art be included once again in the cel awards, but I see no reason why the two should overlap (other than simply because some folks don't wish to participate in the sketch awards, and therefore want to enter their artwork in the cel awards). If you would propose that the comic/manga category be dropped from the sketch awards but kept in the cel awards, then that would also make sense. But, what you are currently suggesting is that those pieces of art, by virtue of the fact that they are black & white the vast majority of the time, deserve to have 2 chances to win awards -- once in each contest. The same goes for any sketch, for that matter, if you allow them to also be entered in the cel awards. My guess is that you do not support the sketch awards, and would therefore prefer the comic/manga category to remain with the cel awards rather than with the sketches.

For this year, it makes sense to leave the pencil/b&w art out of the cel awards. If the community wishes for the awards to be re-combined next year, then so be it. But why not allow these new restrictions to go forward and see how it turns out? If you disagree as strongly as you seem, then you are always free to not participate. I would think that a lack of participation in the awards should tell all organizers and potential organizers that the community does not support the current condition of the awards contests.

-----------

On the subject of the robot category: I would respectfully request that it remain just robots for the same reasons as have already been expressed by kizu & others. I like WC's suggestion of a "vehicle" category to encompass such things as spaceships, etc.

Sorry for the rather lengthy post, but it seemed that someone else needed to voice an opinion on the topic. Just my two yen -- take it or leave it.

cutiebunny · Post by **cutiebunny** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:12 am

wELCOME cONSUMER wrote:cutiebunny, not everything that occurred in the sketch awards can and should directly effect the BAs. The two should be separate entities with rules not always formulated in response to the other. We can still easily justify having B&W art in the BAs.

I disagree. The two awards are affiliated with each other, and they serve to give each media its time to shine. The sketch awards exist to give sketches and other black/white/pencil media its own event, while the Cel Awards are for the colored media.

We've seen in past awards that, while sketches win some awards, the bulk of them goes to the colored media. Considering that it has been almost a decade since non-rilezu cel artwork was produced, establishing the Anime Beta Sketch Awards was a way of also giving those who collect primary from newer shows a chance to show off their artwork. It also gives these collectors a greater chance at winning some awards, which, honestly, is why many people submit their artwork.

I don't see what the big deal is about not allowing black and white artwork to be submitted during the cel/colored media awards. It's not like they weren't allowed in the sketch awards, so it's not like they didn't get their fair chance at competition this year. There were several black/white comic artwork entries for the sketch awards.

What I see the 'industry art' category becoming is perhaps a few comic book/manga artwork pages and a whole bunch of colored shikishi.

kizu · Post by **kizu** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:16 am

Hi Angelic-Lair and organizers, thanks for your ears on the stuff that mattered to me (otherwise I'd never have voiced them).

Will wait for the polls and I think that's it from me for now.

cutiebunny · Post by **cutiebunny** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:18 pm

Question - If a sequence mate won an award but it is significantly different than another of its sequence, can this non-awarded entry be submitted?

Angelic-Lair · Post by **Angelic-Lair** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:14 pm

Polls have been added!

Please, please, please check them out. The more feedback we get over the next two days, the better. ^__^

Award Graphics "Colors" Poll
http://www.anime-beta.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=319372

Additional Categories Poll
http://www.anime-beta.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=319378

Rilezu/Repro/Hanken Poll
http://www.anime-beta.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=319375

Thanks!

wELCOME cONSUMER · Post by **wELCOME cONSUMER** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:37 pm

zero, you're making many assertions that I am not and would not. My point about this thread's evolution concerning Comic and Shikishi is the obvious flaws in combining two such categories. I don't collect either of these things but it doesn't look like the people who do are getting a chance to speak up. They are also wholly different forms of media. It's right up there with allowing Hankens into any category.

I am totally neutral concerning the Sketch awards, as in, I don't have "strong feelings" about them. I am just stuck in my ways and can't wrap my head around this discussion. How can manga panels be eligible in Comic, or Industry Art -- whatever it's being called, if B&W is disallowed? Answer: they won't be. To me, that's a tragedy. I won't stand in the way of progress because I don't care that much , I just like all sides to be examined. How can that truly happen during Thanksgiving week? Impossible.

I do have a rather delicate matter to bring up about this year's awards. I see on the credits the staff. There is a person listed who I believe has a big conflict of interest. If anyone remembers the 2007 awards, you'll know where I'm going with this. The scandal caused should result in permanent banning from the organization of any future BAs. Would it not be prudent for this person to simply step down and not be involved in any way? I'm not saying they cannot enter has a contestant, but they certainly should not be allowed to be an authority in the event based on their previous actions.

Angelic-Lair · Post by **Angelic-Lair** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:09 pm

cutiebunny wrote:Question - If a sequence mate won an award but it is significantly different than another of its sequence, can this non-awarded entry be submitted?

Valid question. This brings up two other questions:
1) How do we define "significant"?
2) Who will determine whether the difference is significant or not? We are not sure we want to have that responsibility

.

Thoughts?

Angelic-Lair · Post by **Angelic-Lair** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:13 pm

wELCOME cONSUMER wrote:I do have a rather delicate matter to bring up about this year's awards. I see on the credits the staff. There is a person listed who I believe has a big conflict of interest. If anyone remembers the 2007 awards, you'll know where I'm going with this. The scandal caused should result in permanent banning from the organization of any future BAs. Would it not be prudent for this person to simply step down and not be involved in any way? I'm not saying they cannot enter has a contestant, but they certainly should not be allowed to be an authority in the event based on their previous actions.

We have been made aware of the 2007 incident. If the person in question wishes to step down, that is up to them. We see no reason to ask them to do so. We believe in giving second chances, and this person has proven to be a valuable member of our team.

ReiTheJelly · Post by **ReiTheJelly** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:25 pm

wELCOME cONSUMER wrote:I don't collect either of these things but it doesn't look like the people who do are getting a chance to speak up.

How are they not being allowed to speak? That is what this thread is for. I see none of them being negative about this change, while you (who don't even collect in these categories) are fussing. Are you honestly speaking for THEM, or is this your personal opinion?

wELCOME cONSUMER wrote:I am just stuck in my ways and can't wrap my head around this discussion...I just like all sides to be examined. How can that truly happen during Thanksgiving week? Impossible.