Let's Discuss Rules

[benten]

Iceman57 asked why participation in the awards wasn't higher. The member list stands at 933 as of this evening. However, not all are active anymore. I was curious and counted the number of members that have visited the forum in 2010 (using the last visited date in the member list). The total was 181.

If you consider that more representative of the pool of members that might participate / vote in the Beta Awards, then your participations in the 2009 awards is:
55 submitters (30% of active group)
65 voters (36% of active group).

[klet]

4) Artwork that has received a Beta Award in previous years cannot be submitted under any category. Sequence mates of previous winners will be allowed if there is a substantial diffence between the two. The organizers must be informed which piece you are submitting a sequence mate of.

I think this rule needs a little work. A new owner should be able to submit the same cel again, and a different owner should be able to submit a sequence mate.

Let me use the 1st place action cel as an example, since I have sequence mates to it. The cel that won the award was the A2 shot. I should never be able to enter the A2 cel again. Nor should I be able to enter any of the sequence mates I have (or acquire in the future) of that A2 cel. But, if I happen to sell that cel in the future . . . I think the new owner should be able to enter it in future beta awards if he so desires. I also think that another collector should be able to enter any sequence mate to that A2 cel at any time.

After all, how much would it suck if a new collector bought my cel, tried to enter it in 2020, and couldn't because it won an award in 2009?


I do agree, however, that sequence mates should not be entered into the same category in the same year, unless they are so different that viewers cannot tell they are sequence mates just by looking. It should be up to the judgment of the organizer(s) whether two cels are too close to each other to compete. In the event that they are declared obvious sequence mates, then the spot should go to the first cel entered.

EDIT: Crap. List.

I think all the issues you have listed, GK, are good ones to start with. So, I'll add a 7th one.


1. Re-vamp entry rules to discuss consequences when they're broken
2. Where to put the rilezu and repros
3. What should be allowed in the settei category and should it be re-named
4. Should everyone have to vote that entered.
5. Cel and Sketches. Together? Separate?
6. Number of entries per category. What's the minimum
7. Qualification (or lack thereof) of past winners and sequence mates

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

One solution to the size pixel problem might be to go back to what was done one of earlier Beta Awards.

If I remember correctly we sent 2 files for each picture 1 a set size to be used as the "thumbnail" a second larger scan that was then used for the display and was displayed after the thumbnail was clicked upon. There was a limit set as to file size.

I'm a fan of this method because it accommodates dial-up users (thumbnails) and high speed users (larger images) fairly well. Especially since some participants admitted they used the page of thumbnails as their primary viewing mode while voting. However, it may not be entirely possible to lay down this rule permanently. It may not be possible, feasible or easy to accomplish from year to year depending on who is organizing the event. I'd love to have large optional images be made available if an entrant is willing/able to provide one but it should not be required of everyone.

I'm not sure why a rule governing "how people vote" is even being broached because you cannot control how people think or behave. Voting is a private affair based on personal, subjective criteria unique to that individual. Some people vote based on the category name/description and others don't. Who cares? Live and let live.

As for Settei:
For the Cels contest, there should be a settings category for model cels. Any other settings groundwork that assists the animators in producing the series could also be eligible as long as it is on a cel. Storyboards and other pre-production set-up work should not be eligible because this is always a sketch or art on paper.

For the Sketches contest, there should be a settings category for paper items, including model/set-up sketches, storyboards, and other pre-production groundwork that assists the animators in producing the series.

Otherwise, for the Sketches contest, there could be a seperate Settei sketch category (for original {or 1st gen copies? I dunno} model sketches) and a Groundwork sketch category (for plot/storyboard set-ups), since a character model sketch is significantly different enough from a storyboard sketch in terms of art quality and purpose. The obvious caveat might be the number of entries, not sure how many people collect these specialized and often quite rare items.

It was honestly very frustrating to see a storyboard sketch admitted into the Settei category in the cel contest this year. There can easily be a Settei (or something akin to it) category in each contest, just with different guidelines concerning the entries.

[Goldknight]

I think the pixel issue should be left to the organizers since it'll depend on their websites/coding. They may have a different way of presenting the cels each year. Just my opinion.

[JWR]

OK the polls on rilezu and reproduction cels has closed.

Per the majority of those voting the results are as follows.

Rilezu cels can be entered in all catagories they fit.

Reproduction cels can be entered but only in their own catagory.

Now on to the other questions raised.

1. Re-vamp entry rules to discuss consequences when they're broken

I would personally leave this up to the event organizers to handle by a case by case issue. So far in the awards I have been a partisipant in there have only been 2 issues of different severity. 1 case involved a person creating "sock puppets" to be able to vote more than once and the other where a fan cel artist submitted a cel that they had sold prior to the contest. While ther first deserved for all entries and votes by that person to be removed the second should have only had the cel in question removed. I am not a fan of blanket punishment.

2. Where to put the rilezu and repros
This was decided by a vote.

3. What should be allowed in the settei category and should it be re-named
I had suggested that this category be renamed Pre Production Art so it can encompass test and model cels as well as other items. The question is should the difference between this award be between Paper and Plastic or Color and B&W.

4. Should everyone have to vote that entered.
I feel that if you enter you should be required to vote in all except the optional catagories. Thats a small price to enter.

5. Cel and Sketches. Together? Separate?
This was decided by vote that they would be separate.

6. Number of entries per category. What's the minimum
I think that there should be at least 3 to be have 1 award 4 to have 2 awards 5 or more to have 3 awards.
I do believe that those who enter in a catagory that has less than 3 entries should have the chance to make an additional entry in a different catagory.

7. Qualification (or lack thereof) of past winners and sequence mates
The rules had been that if you entered a cel you could not enter the same cel for 3 years if it had not won. If it was a winning cel it could not be entered again at all. Now with so many cels changing hands as well as a lot of sequence mates being owned but different collectors we should look at how best to handle things.
I would propose that a winning cel that changed hands be allowed to be entered by the new owner 3 years after the contest it won in.
A cel that had been entered but did not win should be able to be re-entered by it's new owner the next year.
Sequence mates of a winning cel should be allowed to be entered 2 years the 1st cel won an award. Those sequence mates that are of cels thqat had been entered but did not win should be able to be entered the next year.

Thats my opinion , I could be wrong

[Angelic-Lair]

Thanks for running the polls, Joe! The Reproduction poll was enlightening! ^__^

Regarding the Rilezu poll: We cannot speak for others on the board, but personally, we would prefer hearing how the community feels about the results, before a decision is made on a 51% majority. 51% means roughly one person out of two on the board is unhappy about having rilezu everywhere. It also means one person out of two would be unhappy if it would stay in its own category. We think that shows that the issue remains unresolved. Another alternative could be sought out, to make more people happy. That is just our two cents though.

*goes back to lurking before tomatoes start flying*

[JWR]

Thanks for running the polls, Joe! The Reproduction poll was enlightening! ^__^

Regarding the Rilezu poll: We cannot speak for others on the board, but personally, we would prefer hearing how the community feels about the results, before a decision is made on a 51% majority. 51% means roughly one person out of two on the board is unhappy about having rilezu everywhere. It also means one person out of two would be unhappy if it would stay in its own category. We think that shows that the issue remains unresolved. Another alternative could be sought out, to make more people happy. That is just our two cents though.

*goes back to lurking before tomatoes start flying*

I'm sorry but I don't think it is productive to keep debating this issue. We put up a poll so all who wished to vote could do so. Majority rules and the majority chose to allow rilezu's in all catagories.

Partisipation in the awards is optional , if having Rilezu's in all catagories is a gamebreaker for anyone then that's their choice.

[zerospace]

I mean no offense here, but last time I checked, 51% constitutes a majority -- I don't recall seeing anyone saying that 100% agreement is needed to make a decision. It also seems to me that people have voiced their opinions on this subject over and over again, and the poll was meant to simplify the issue a little to reach a general consensus, because the existing discussion was headed nowhere fast. Further discussion at this point would probably only serve to divide people on the issue more as well as just continue to beat a dead horse.

I realize that a 51% majority means that 49% disagree, but at what point do you draw the line? If you wish to change the terms of the poll, then that would mean a new poll is needed and more time will be lost on a subject that has already drained a large portion of the awards discussion thus far. I think it's time to move on from the rilezu and repro subject for now, but that's just me .

[Belldandy16]

I agree with Zero and JWR.
Whats the pourpose of the poll if we have to keep debating the issue? Itll only make more frustrations (and last awards was frustrating enough). Just relax and lets move on to another issue.

One issue that i would like to bring up...
How many people we need to run the awards (as in: making the site, making the awards, counting votes… those things) .

Thats ALOT of work and i really think you need more than two people doing everything. Last awards it was just me and one other person counting the votes. Now we had over 50 people vote at 30 some catagories.
so thats over 1500 votes to count! And when its only two people and you make mistakes you have to go over it again… that takes a LONG time (and esp when emergencies happen… like it did with both of us at the same time).

Anyways, what im saying is that we have to have more people helping. Its just not fair to have only one or two people doing the bulk of the work (and everyone else sitting back and criticizing ).


Id say we need at least two or three making up the website itself, four people to help vote counting, one person to make an award template and two or three to make the awards (all DIFFERENT people). That would be at a minimum.

I think thats really important.

[Angelic-Lair]

Sorry guys. We certainly don't want to bring more frustration.

Maybe our previous post did not reflect our concerns properly... We were not trying to debate what should be done with rilezu, or even the concept of a majority vote. To use JWR's words, the "gamebreaker" here is the fact that 49% of the rilezu poll participants are being ignored in order to move forward.

But no worries. We just wanted to state our opinion. Please move forward with the other issues.

[zerospace]

I have to disagree with you slightly, Belldandy16 -- not with the spirit of your idea, but with this sort of thing being included in the fixed rules. I think this should be left up to whomever runs the awards each year.

The reason I say this is that if you take the 2008 awards, since I built that web site--that many people would have been totally useless, as my site did all of the 'manual' work for us. So three people (one to run it, one to build the site, and one to make the awards) was all that was necessary. So, I think it depends on the people running the thing. If they choose not to accept enough help (I do believe that there's not usually a shortage of volunteers every year), and they find themselves unable to complete things in a timely manner, that's ... their failure, and the forum members need to hold them accountable for it.

Just my two yen on that subject .

[JWR]

Sorry guys. We certainly don't want to bring more frustration.

Maybe our previous post did not reflect our concerns properly... We were not trying to debate what should be done with rilezu, or even the concept of a majority vote. To use JWR's words, the "gamebreaker" here is the fact that 49% of the rilezu poll participants are being ignored in order to move forward.

But no worries. We just wanted to state our opinion. Please move forward with the other issues.

I do take issue with your tone of your post. It truly sounds like sour grapes on your part that the vote did not come out the way you would have liked.

An unfortunate result of all elections is that they rarely ever come out with 100% being in favor or against of what is to be decided. All we can do is ask all those who wish to vote to do so and to accept the outcome of a fair and honest vote. The fact that the vote was close does not change the fact that a majority of those voting chose to decide this issue in favor of including Rilezu cels in all catagories.

I would hope we can all move forward like adults otherwise we would be better off scrapping the awards.

[Belldandy16]

I have to disagree with you slightly, Belldandy16 -- not with the spirit of your idea, but with this sort of thing being included in the fixed rules. I think this should be left up to whomever runs the awards each year.

The reason I say this is that if you take the 2008 awards, since I built that web site--that many people would have been totally useless, as my site did all of the 'manual' work for us. So three people (one to run it, one to build the site, and one to make the awards) was all that was necessary.

well thats a totally different situation. if you have a computer running it then of course there's no need for so many people. lol But in our situation, the site didnt do any of the work, we had to. So i think in those types of situations you do need more people. But if you can get the site to do all the work of counting the awards, thats awesome!
as for making the awards i really think that more than one person should do that. i mean, think about it, 30 catagories with at least 2 or three awards per category... maybe 80 awards? i really dont think thats fair for only one person to do that.

So, I think it depends on the people running the thing. If they choose not to accept enough help (I do believe that there's not usually a shortage of volunteers every year), and they find themselves unable to complete things in a timely manner, that's ... their failure, and the forum members need to hold them accountable for it.

but how do you figure its their fault if noone else volunteers.

[Angelic-Lair]

I do take issue with your tone of your post. It truly sounds like sour grapes on your part that the vote did not come out the way you would have liked.

An unfortunate result of all elections is that they rarely ever come out with 100% being in favor or against of what is to be decided. All we can do is ask all those who wish to vote to do so and to accept the outcome of a fair and honest vote. The fact that the vote was close does not change the fact that a majority of those voting chose to decide this issue in favor of including Rilezu cels in all catagories.

I would hope we can all move forward like adults otherwise we would be better off scrapping the awards.

We are surprised with the tone in your response too... We posted to apologize and bring closure to this, as we really want the awards to continue, and don't want to bring more frustrations. We're sorry if our post seemed resentful. We never mentioned which option we voted for in either poll, and if we really wanted to complain about the results, we would have done so about repros as well, since we voted that they not be included.

Maybe it would be best that we log off this thread for a while. We honestly are not trying to ruffle any feathers.

[zerospace]

Oh don't misunderstand what I'm saying, Belldandy ... if they don't get enough volunteers, it isn't their fault. I just mean if lots of people step up to volunteer, and whoever is organizing doesn't accept the extra help and then fails to get things done on time, that's their fault. At least that's what I think. That's all.