Anime-Beta TNG

This topic will come up again I imagine. I was debating on which poll to run next. Then thought what the heck. Let's just get this one done. If the subject comes up again in the future then of course we could discuss it again and run yet another poll.

I went ahead and voted that rilezu be included in all catergories instead of being placed in their own. My reason is that since most new series are CG we become limited with only cel entries. By strictly using production cels we limit ourselves in choices and variety. Had sketches been included I probably would have voted differently on this. Anyway...that's my 2 yen. What's yours? Now the inclusion of repro cels is totally different IMHO, but I did incorporate them into this poll somewhat. I imagine that the repro subject will come up again a few times in some polls as well as when various organizers take the awards on.

Goldknight wrote:I went ahead and voted that rilezu be included in all catergories instead of being placed in their own. My reason is that since most new series are CG we become limited with only cel entries. By strictly using production cels we limit ourselves in choices and variety.

Not mixing production cels with rilezu keep the filiation of the previous 5 years contests. There are still tons of inventories available at this time. Why not preserve this distinction of Rilezu in a separate category and reopen the debate in 5 or 10 years when production cels will really be rare...

Goldknight wrote:Now the inclusion of repro cels is totally different IMHO, but I did incorporate them into this poll somewhat. I imagine that the repro subject will come up again a few times in some polls as well as when various organizers take the awards on.

Repro by the term of limited edition is not acceptable, same problem as rejecting a sequence mate. They all are sequence mate of the same picture.

Since repros can have from 5 to 50 of the same cel, I feel they should not be included in the contest. I have several repros so this isn't b/c I have anything against repro themselves.

As for rilezu, I agree with GK on the reason to include them. They are a one of kind post-production cel made from a specific douga from that series and the only cels available for newer series and future series. From the way they have been selling, this may not even be an issue for future series.

I don't agree with a separate category of rilezus. I found it difficult to determine which was the best. I have several rilezus from several series and in this last contest it was difficult to decide which one to enter. I could have enter one that fit into the Male, Group, Child, Accessory, Tranquility, Special Effects, or Sorrow categories, but without something to go by I didn't know which would be best. I could have entered my favorite, but I have a several for different reasons, so I ended up not entering that category.

With Rilezu as a category, what do you base it on...you can't go by the category since there is no distinction other than it's a rilezu. Some rilezu portray the series colors better than others, but unless you know the series you wouldn't know which was best. It's a category that is strictly decided by which one best appeals to the voter, not which one best fits the category. But some people may want a category like that.

I agree that rilezu should be allowed in all categories, but repros should not for the same reason(s) AO stated. I'm not even a serious rilezu collector, but I do see them as somewhat the future of cels, at least for now. I'd imagine there will be plenty of cels to enter for quite a few years to come, but if we are ever to see newer shows in the cel awards, rilezu are the only way to really accomplish that. Just like the sketch awards can include sketches from cel-based shows, allowing post-production cels from CG-based shows seems appropriate. But that's just me.

I don't really think repros should be allowed at all, unless perhaps they are placed in their own category. But, then there's the question of how to judge that category.

I also believe Rilezus's should be able to be entered in any catagory that they fit. They are 1 offs and are hand done just like all the other production cels.

Like AO I also have many that would fit in all sorts of different catagories including a couple of Hankens.

There have been some really interesting points raised here. We'd just like to add our 2 cents:

Several categories, such as Hanken, Settei and Industry Art are just as difficult to judge as Rilezu. They are all a unique form of art rather than a category like female or accessory. Why should Rilezu be treated any differently than these other categories? They're all "best-of" categories.

If we're considering putting Rilezu everywhere, shouldn't we consider removing all of the categories that are based on a type of artwork? Hanken collectors would probably love having the opportunity to enter their artwork into a category that better fits the image, such as tranquilty or group. We know we would.

Well...

a Hanken is a specially composed piece of advertizing art,
whereas a Rilezu is just a single frame from the show... like a production cel.

Angelic-Lair wrote:
If we're considering putting Rilezu everywhere, shouldn't we consider removing all of the categories that are based on a type of artwork? Hanken collectors would probably love having the opportunity to enter their artwork into a category that better fits the image, such as tranquilty or group. We know we would.

I know the reason Hanken art was separated was that by nature Hankens are much more higher quality and detailed that normal production art in a lot of cases with thicker painted lines rather than the lines that can fade over time on production cels. In most time a Hanken would overshadow the other artwork in whatever category it was entered. The ability to plan out the image making such factors as a balanced group , all characters "facing the camera" and the use of more vibrant colors make a Hanken superior. There is a reason in most cases Hankens cost a lot more than normal production artwork.

Now up until this last year , Rilezu's were able to be entered into all categories and they did not dominate the awards. I trust the members here who vote to pick what they decide is the image to fit the category be it from a production cel or a rilezu.

I believe that rilezu should be allowed in all categories. They are unique cels, which just happen by nature to be post-production instead of actual production.


I do not believe that repro cels should be allowed. In some cases, I have seen "limited edition' cels with batch numbers as high as 2500!

We believe you both have very good points, JWR and Irmgaard. We also want to clarify that we think many rilezu pieces are quite attractive, and we have nothing against them.

We just want to point out a few other elements that, in our opinion, make rilezu closer to hanken than regular production cels:

- They are one-of-a-kind post-production pieces.
- More attention is put into their making, and the artists doing them are hand picked for that particular job, not like a non-key cel for example.
- When a rilezu is made, they pick a scene/character/moment that is interesting and/or attractive, so that it sells better. They also tend to pick key/end shots, as well as openings/endings.
- Rilezu can be quite expensive. We've seen rilezu in the hanken price range many times.

It is for those reasons that we believe that rilezu should receive the same treatment as hanken. Might we also point out that in 2005, rilezu and hanken were indeed in the same category. Regardless though, if you're not comfortable judging rilezu as a "best-of" category, how can you be comfortable judging hanken that way?

Just our thoughts.

If you don't mind, I'll look at each of the points you've raised (and I love Hankens and have them, too...as well as Rilezu...)

Angelic-Lair wrote:- They are one-of-a-kind post-production pieces.

This is certainly true of Rilezu. Some Hankens, however, are made before a production even starts.

Angelic-Lair wrote:- More attention is put into their making, and the artists doing them are hand picked for that particular job, not like a non-key cel for example.

This is true of Hankens, Rilezu, and... most of the production cels in this contest.

Angelic-Lair wrote:- When a rilezu is made, they pick a scene/character/moment that is interesting and/or attractive, so that it sells better. They also tend to pick key/end shots, as well as openings/endings.

Again, true of Hankens, Rilezu, and production cels likely to be entered into this contest.

Angelic-Lair wrote:- Rilezu can be quite expensive. We've seen rilezu in the hanken price range many times.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record, so let me just say that several of the production cels I have cost more than my Rilezu, or several of my Hankens. I think that is true of a lot (though not all) of the cels in this contest...

Angelic-Lair wrote:Might we also point out that in 2005, rilezu and hanken were indeed in the same category.

But that was the only time they were. Usually, Rilezu have been allowed in all categories.

Angelic-Lair wrote:Regardless though, if you're not comfortable judging rilezu as a "best-of" category, how can you be comfortable judging hanken that way?

That's easy! Since a Hanken is made to sell a show, either to it's fanbase on product, or to the targeted or general public in ads, I just pick the image that is the most appealing to me as a potential consumer (viewer) of the show, or purchaser of a product. That's the test that Hankens face in the real world, so we really get to judge them by how well they fill their actual design purpose!

Wow! We appreciate the thought and effort you put into your response! Definitely puts some stuff into perspective.

I would like to see rilezu in all applicable catagories. I think it would be too difficult to judge a rilezu only catagory.

I concur with everyone who said rilezus should be included in almost all categories. I'm still a bit iffy on repros though as for some series, like naruto, it's the only way for these cels to be included in the cel awards. Perhaps a restriction on which series could be included can be placed.

Whoops...what happens if I voted wrong? I pushed the wrong one I wanted