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How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:49 pm
by JWR
Please Read before voting.

After totaling the votes we are faced with a couple of categories in one in which there was 3 entries with a tie for 1st place that makes the one left the "worst" in the category, the other had 4 entries which had a clearcut 1st place but 2 others tied for 2nd again leaving one left out.

We have had a couple of options put forth:
1. Not award any places in the case of 2 tied for 1st out of 3 and just 1st place in the case of 4 entries with 2 tied for 2nd (this has been put forth to avoid any embarrassment for the one entry that would be left out of placing)
2. Award as placed

Since we want these award contest to be fun for everyone I would like to have a consensus before we proceed with declaring these categories.

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:08 am
by 90sKid
I personally wouldn't mind if the awards were given out as placed. I know that when I'm voting I feel like all of the sketches in this contest are really beautiful pieces of art. I'd like to think that everyone else feels the same way when voting and looking at my entries. If one of my sketches came out in the obvious "loser" spot of a category, I wouldn't be embarrassed that it was the "worst" one out of the bunch. Since this community is tight knit, it's very easy for the "loser" of the batch to have lost by only a few votes, not a humongous landslide of like 500 votes. Because of this I don't see placing last as some big red "your sketch stinks" flag. I don't know how others would feel about it, but I wouldn't be upset at placing last in a contest where everyone has such beautiful entries, making voting such a hard decision. =)

As for not giving any awards in the event of two tied winners out of three entries, I could see those who entered that category being a bit upset about not being able to get a trophy. It's as if they had no chance at all from the get-go and their entries became void. I think that's a little unfair compared to others who entered into a category that didn't earn such a restriction. Even if I was the loser of that category, I'd rather see two people place as winner than keep wondering who possibly won.

Either way that's just my opinion, and of course I don't mind at all which option is chosen. ^_^ It's all good to me since we wouldn't even be having a contest if you guys didn't do all the work to set it up.

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:21 am
by sensei
Just so everyone understands the issue here: The tradition in giving awards is not to identify a single entry as being the sole non-winner, or "worst in category." So if there are three entries in a category, and the two front-runners tie for first, then normally they would both receive "first." But that then would publicly identify the third entry as "worst."

There was a case of this sort in the cel contest this year: we awarded a first and a second in one category, but found that if we gave thirds to the two cels that tied for this level, then we'd leave a single entry unawarded as "worst." So that group chose to give first and second only.

So the vote is on whether to continue the tradition of avoiding giving awards in a way that publicly identifies a single entry as "worst" or to give the awards as the vote totals would merit.

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:36 am
by zerospace
I think the main issue here (at least for me and at least 1 other person) is that in one category, there would be no winner ... which seems silly and a waste to everyone who entered that category. It's no different than the category being cut, but these people had no chance to re-submit to another category. If faced with the choice between wasting people's entries or saving one person's feelings, well... no offense to the one entry/person that doesn't get an award, but I'd opt to award the tie rather than effectively axe yet another category.

Perhaps the two situations should be handled differently? In the other case, it seems fine to only award the relevant places/entries, since some awards would be given and this has been done in the past.

From past experience, awards that are not planned much or well in advance get very low entry and voter turnouts. Low turnouts almost always result in a lot of ties like this, because there's only a few entries in each category and most of the same people who enter are the ones to vote (with maybe a bunch of others who opt only to vote, but this doesn't seem to help the ties >_<).

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:49 am
by sensei
Well put: but if we do make the change, then everyone needs to know that it is a decision to break with a tradition that has in past contests been strongly supported.

Still, if that tradition is seen by participants as counterproductive of the overall goals of the contest as it now exists, then so be it. Let the herd be heard.

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:53 pm
by cutiebunny
I guess my thought lies in "What does it matter to you if your item 'loses'?"

This is supposed to be a fun contest. And if you're not buying artwork for the sole purpose of winning awards, what does it matter to you if your item loses? As long as you still enjoy your item, then you're doing fine.

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:43 pm
by Gonzai
Just my 2 yen here, however, if there is 3 in a category, someone would have been
1st and 2nd regardless, and wouldn't that say that the person who was 3rd got the
least votes anyway?? I am confused by your logic on this one. There are 3 entries.
However you award it, you are always going to know who got the least amount of votes.

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:20 pm
by sensei
Gonzai wrote:Just my 2 yen here, however, if there is 3 in a category, someone would have been
1st and 2nd regardless, and wouldn't that say that the person who was 3rd got the
least votes anyway?? I am confused by your logic on this one. There are 3 entries.
However you award it, you are always going to know who got the least amount of votes.
This is handled by Submission Rule #7, which says "There must be 3 entries to qualify for 1 award. 4 for 2 awards and 5 or more for all three." So if there are only three entries, only first prize is awarded in that category. If there are only four entries, then only first and second prizes are awarded. Both rules are intended to avoid identifying the entry who receives fewest votes as being publicly identified as "worst in category."

The present poll concerns what to do if there are only three entries in a category and two of them tie for first place. Or if there are only four entries and two tie for second place. In both cases, the only entry not receiving an award would be called out in public as being "worst," which up to now the organizers of the cel and sketch contests have avoided doing.

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:22 pm
by theultimatebrucelee
How about give these entries a 3rd place award instead of no award at all :D Awards are fun to receive, no? I think that'd make this a beneficial case instead.

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:46 pm
by Rekka Alexiel
It's not hard to imagine that we'd run into this problem with categories that only have 3 entries. I can understand where this tradition comes from but I would much rather save the category above all else. I think many people tried to enter into these dying categories and were just able to save them with three entries. It seems like a major waste to throw all of that away to be nice and uphold some tradition.

You could even give out two 1st place awards and give the other one the 3nd award, nixing the 3rd place.

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:00 am
by Yupa
I really don't mind being the only one who doesn't get an award in a category.
I think we should just follow Submission Rule #7 and hand out the number of awards according to the number of entries. And if there will be more because of a tie then so be it.

Maybe we should make a list of all cases and decide on them, so we know once and for all how to handle these exception cases.
The following list is an example and not a complete list. Each line is one category, a,b,c,d,e,... represent number of votes for one entry.

Code: Select all

a > b > c *************** a 1st
a = b > c *************** a&b 1st <- Problem case in 1st post
a = b = c *************** a&b&c 1st
a > b > c > d *********** a 1st, b 2nd
a = b > c > d *********** a&b 1st
a > b = c > d *********** a 1st, b&c 2nd <- Problem case in 1st post
a = b = c > d *********** a&b&c 1st
a = b = c = d *********** a&b&c&d 1st
a > b > c > d > e ... *** a 1st, b 2nd, c 3rd
a = b > c > d > e ... *** a&b 1st, c 3rd
a > b = c > d > e ... *** a 1st, b&c 2nd
a = b = c > d > e ... *** a&b&c 1st
a > b > c = d > e ... *** a 1st, b 2nd, c&d 3rd
a = b > c = d > e ... *** a&b 1st, c&d 3rd
a > b = c = d > e ... *** a 1st, b&c&d 2nd
a = b = c = d > e ... *** a&b&c&d 1st
etc.


Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:54 am
by Gonzai
This is handled by Submission Rule #7, which says "There must be 3 entries to qualify for 1 award. 4 for 2 awards and 5 or more for all three." So if there are only three entries, only first prize is awarded in that category. If there are only four entries, then only first and second prizes are awarded. Both rules are intended to avoid identifying the entry who receives fewest votes as being publicly identified as "worst in category."
Yep - goes to show how much I paid attention to any of this. X|

Re: How to handle certain ties?

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:07 pm
by JWR
Thanks everyone who took the time to comment and vote on this question I put forth.

As I stated at the begining we want to make it as humanly possible to keep this contest fun. So when faced with a choice of eliminating awards by following a rule or bending that rule I wanted to make sure we had the membership's backing and guidance on how to proceed.