Raising the bid to a tie and then stop bidding.

[theultimatebrucelee]

What are the chances of this happening? This other bidder spent 2 hours to gradually tie the bid with me, and when the bid is finally tied up, he stopped bidding and...I win? How does this work? Looking at the bidding log, he seems to be the only person bidding against me too, and as far as I remember, this is the highest single auction price I've seen for this title. So I'm beginning to think that theres some kind of conspiracy involved-_-" But then the proxy I used is very reputable. Does this ever happen to anyone else? How do other members interpret this?

http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b148263838

[Keropi]

I've always had a hard time reading those bid logs.

Isn't there a way of bidding that might reveal what the high bid is because of the way it comes out after you're through bidding? I think something looks different like the bid increment or something. I forgot how it's done. Someone did it to me once on YJ. Unfortunately it was for made up production sketches too.

[grEenLeaFx]

Yea I would be very suspicious on that. If it was me I would not feel comfortable paying that if I knew the auction might be fixed. Sorry that happened to you.

[sensei]

Sure sounds like shill bidding to me. Either that, or the other party wanted it, just not for the reserve bid you lodged. So s/he bid in small increments up to a tie, then stopped in order to make you eat your full reserve price, just out of spite. That happened to me once on Mandarake.

[JWR]

Yes I think most of us have experienced this from time to time while bidding on YJ.

Seems that YJ does not have the same safeguards about shill bidding that Ebay has. Even if proved a deputy service may not be willing to risk their reputation to not pay or back out of an auction.

[theultimatebrucelee]

Thanks for the input guys!

A fellow member on the board was able to point out that this person is most likely bidding out of spite, going by his auction feedbacks. I've bid on the same auctions as him before and he does tend to bid quite a bit on this series. Although it never went to this price range nor was his bidding style "normal" this time, which got me pretty suspicious. I guess no one else bid because only two of us really wanted it. One thing I could not figure out is how he is able to figure out exactly how much I bid on it in order to max me out-_-" Either way though, this is only the second worst case scenario, the worst would have been losing the auction itself. I'll just have to eat this one and be glad to have a nice set from my wishlist.

Isn't there a way of bidding that might reveal what the high bid is because of the way it comes out after you're through bidding? I think something looks different like the bid increment or something.

Must be some kind of hidden secret technique unbeknown to proxy users. It'd be kinda nice to have my own account on it, I wonder any proxy does that nowadays.

Even if proved a deputy service may not be willing to risk their reputation to not pay or back out of an auction.

Ah man, I don't know one single proxy that would go that extra mile in their customers interest. As of now, it seems like theres no way around this kinda of sticky situation as long as proxy is involved.

[Killua]

One thing I could not figure out is how he is able to figure out exactly how much I bid on it in order to max me out-_-" Either way though, this is only the second worst case scenario, the worst would have been losing the auction itself. I'll just have to eat this one and be glad to have a nice set from my wishlist.

Man this really blows for you, but at least I might be able to help you with how he did it. With YJ and most auction sites, you have to bid a minimum increment above the other higher bidder. So what this guy did was keep bidding the minimum increment until he got to you. If you both bid the same amount, the first person who bid wins the auction. So eventually he got to a point where he bid an amount, and the auction total was the amount he bid, but you were winning. That means he found out your max bid. By bidding only the minimum increment, even if his bid were more than yours, as long as it's less than the increment he's good to go. (at least this is what I think the situation is.)

[Animechaos]

There is a way to find out what the other persons bid is, but you have to bid yourself really close.

If you place a bid but are outbid, if the other persons counterbid seems less than the normal minimum increment then the bid shown would be their max.

For example assuming a minimum bid increment of 500 yen: Current auction price is 10,000 yen. You bid 10,500 but are outbid. The price oddly goes up to 10,675. Normally it should go to 11,000 yen to meet the minimum bid requirement, but since the other bidders max isn't that high it can only go so far. So now you know their max bid was 10,675 yen.

The only other way to know what someone else bid is to bid the same amount as their max. Say you bid that 10,500 yen, it goes through, but you're outbid. But oddly it stays at 10,500 yen instead of going up to meet the minimum bid requirement. That means you tied, and whoever had their bid in first keeps the "high bid".

[Keropi]

Yeah, bidding in odd increments slightly increases the chance of someone being able to do it to you. But it could be the other bidder sticking in an odd bid increment so it doesn't matter a whole lot whether you're doing it or not. The other bidder could just do it on their own.

[theultimatebrucelee]

Very interesting. Sounds like YJA doesn't have a guide as to how much a second bidder needs to enter to bid like ebay. Now I know how this works, though its still a headache to deal with this unlimited time extension thing. They could instead cap the amount of time extension an individual bidder can create. That way maybe people with nothing else better to do won't drag on forever in creating a new bidding record with weird bidding style. I think the previous record was a nearby sequence to this one, which ended at 73100yen, which sure enough this same bidder lost out on. Lesson learned though, next time I'll just enter bids as necessary instead of bidding full at once.

[Kasi]

I also tend to enter a high max bid in at first, and was getting stuck with these types of bidders.
While it might not help stop deliberate shill bidding, it was suggested to me in a previous topic to have two deputy services at hand in case of drawn out auctions.
I used this method recently to bump up the price instead of waiting hours for another bidder continually extending the auction time. I'm not sure where they would have stopped, or if I increased the price much closer to my max bid without need, but it was well worth it. They didn't bid again.

[theultimatebrucelee]

That does sound like a good idea. The only down side is as you mentioned, its hard to determined how far the other bidder is willing to go. Sure enough though, it would have been the right strategy in this case. That is taking advantage of the proxy though lol

[Animechaos]

Personally when I bid on something I put in a absolute minimum bid that puts me as the high bidder. Then using our system put in a snipe bid for my true maximum. That way you have a secure bid, others think you're just bidding low if they do bid early, then BAM big bid near the end for the true amount you want. Not a sure thing by any means, but if you're worried about other people trying to "step up" the auction for a cheap win, this avoids some of the headache.

But as with anything really popular, you're going to have to fight back and fourth for it at the end. That's when it gets expensive. I've actually started collecting silver coins, and some auctions just go insane. But it's a hobby I really enjoy and pretty neat. Lots of unique items, and the value long term is just going to go up based on silver value. I've got a silly number of these kind of coins, maybe 100 of them or so:
http://smjsearch.com/cgi-bin/b.cgi?171129340

[Quacker]

Wow! Sorry dude! Seriously if it looks like a rat, smells like a rat......well you get the picture.

Looking at the Bid history, you definitely got 'shilled'. It would have been an amazing 'coincidence' for "pol" to suddenly stop bidding right on your Max.Bid.

With YJ and most auction sites, you have to bid a minimum increment above the other higher bidder. So what this guy did was keep bidding the minimum increment until he got to you. If you both bid the same amount, the first person who bid wins the auction. So eventually he got to a point where he bid an amount, and the auction total was the amount he bid, but you were winning. That means he found out your max bid. By bidding only the minimum increment, even if his bid were more than yours, as long as it's less than the increment he's good to go. (at least this is what I think the situation is.)

There is a way to find out what the other persons bid is, but you have to bid yourself really close.

If you place a bid but are outbid, if the other persons counterbid seems less than the normal minimum increment then the bid shown would be their max.

For example assuming a minimum bid increment of 500 yen: Current auction price is 10,000 yen. You bid 10,500 but are outbid. The price oddly goes up to 10,675. Normally it should go to 11,000 yen to meet the minimum bid requirement, but since the other bidders max isn't that high it can only go so far. So now you know their max bid was 10,675 yen.

The only other way to know what someone else bid is to bid the same amount as their max. Say you bid that 10,500 yen, it goes through, but you're outbid. But oddly it stays at 10,500 yen instead of going up to meet the minimum bid requirement. That means you tied, and whoever had their bid in first keeps the "high bid".

Thank-you A-C & Killua for detailing how the 'shilling' may occur & what to be on the look-out for.
Reading this though is really scary as I honestly did not realise how 'simple' it actually may be to deliberately manipulate the final bid price on an item?

It opens the door on a whole range of questions, especially when a bid-war does eventuate; how legitimate is it truly? Is it really another genuine collector trying to bid against you or is it the Seller or an associate of the Seller driving up the price on their item to achieve a final bid they feel is more closer to their valuation of the item rather than letting the "market" dictate how much the item is worth.

This has happened to me...........twice, maybe three times in the past 12months - especially last year when those "FMP" Gengas were getting sold & recently with some "Rahxephon" gengas.

Some Counter-measures you could employ in an attempt to decrease the likelihood the above re-occuring again; place a 'minimum' max. Bid fully anticipating that it will be out-bid and be present for the end of auction; placing further "medium" Max.Bids. If it looks/feels like something is wrong - let your proxy know ASAP?

[Killua]

Thank-you A-C & Killua for detailing how the 'shilling' may occur & what to be on the look-out for.
Reading this though is really scary as I honestly did not realise how 'simple' it actually may be to deliberately manipulate the final bid price on an item?

It's especially easy on YJ because of the automatic 5 minute extension system. It's possible to do this on ebay too, but only if you bid well before the end of the auction, because it takes some time to do it. If you put in your max bid 30 seconds to go, yeah, they can't really shill, at least as confidently. Also, I think some of the shill bidders on YJ recognize what bidders are deputies and are more likely to do it to them, since they know they won't refuse to pay. If I was sure I got shilled on ebay, I just wouldn't pay.