Villains and their Ideals

Krafty · Post by **Krafty** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:05 am

So often, and generally speaking, anime baddies want to destroy, pilliage, and resurrect a demon god and have it al for themselves but isn't this plan flawed?
Wouldn't they prefer living in beautiful surroundings rather than rubble and ruins and if they were to bring an evil god to life, wouldn't it kill or enslave everyone regardless? Thus dealing them a kick in the pants.

What would the bad guys and monsters do once they've conquered the forces of good? Lay back and enjoy the sunshine? Pah, I'd like to see an anime or film which explores these ideas. I reckon that once the baddies settle down into a peaceful lifestyle another rebellion will rise up from a fringe group and the baddies will fight the baddies because they're so bored, heh heh, it's gets silly...
What plans/scenarios do you think are flawed in anime series?

Kujaku · Post by **Kujaku** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:04 am

Honestly, in some cases, they feel they need to destroy things because they have nothing in their life. When someone loses something important, they either try to deal with it or they don't. In the villian world, they normally don't deal with it, so because they are suffering, they make others suffer as well. The more people seem to suffer, the better they feel. " Misery loves company". To the point that some major villians want to destroy the world because they themselves have given up on life. Granted they could kill themselves, but in the end, most are cowards that need to take everyone down with them. Look at Kamui, if he didn't have Kotori or Fuuma to take care of, he probably would have joined the dragons of heaven and destroyed humanity. "The world I know is where I find my loved ones, if they no longer exist, niether does the world". Everyone at one time or another has felt something close to that. A feeling of emptiness, pain and/or lonliness. It is how one deals with them that make us good guys or bad guys. Destroying the world or going out of ones way to make someone suffer, doesn't have to make sense to anyone except for the person inflicting the damage. I mean, if you find what motivates villians in animes confusing, you should look at real life and see some of the horrors that has already transpired. Now that is confusing and scary

I for one like being a good guy.

Kujaku

kittens · Post by **kittens** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:43 am

I loooooooooooooooooove the topic of this thread

One of many reasons why I love Kenshin is that many bad guys have "reasons" to be the way....

For example, Shishio believes that Maiji governement is weak and he believes that even though sacrifying many lives he really wanted to make the nation strong. This is kind of related the real Japanese history. In fact that Meiji government was very unstable and in the late 1800, many countries were trying to colonize other nations and Japan was one of weak nations. So in that time, we really needed to be strong before being colonized by other nations. So, in that time it was really "if you are strong you live. If you are weak, you die."

Another example is jin-e. jin-e started being obsessed to kill ppl because of being a hitokiri. And I do really think that he was not only hitokiri in these time who became obsessed to killing others (I do not remember but there were several hitokiri became like jin-e....)

Also each member of jyupon gatana has some reason to be that way they are.....

I do really like stories which bad guys have philosophy to be who they are

EDIT: Also I do think that Kenshin made mistakes when he became Battousai, even though he had some reasons...... I do think that if you look at different angle, for some ppl, Battousai was a "bad" guy..... So this is all about perspective..... If you read manga, Jinchu series talks about this perspect. Watsuki wrote that Battousai can be seen as "bad" guy. I think the greatest thing about Kenshin was that he realized that he made mistakes even though he had good reasons and he tries to atone for ppl whom he killed.....

rayd · Post by **rayd** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:48 am

I like the Il Palazzo from Excel Saga view of world domination. Start small and end big, and conquest, Conquest, CONQUEST.

Mirai_Peorth · Post by **Mirai_Peorth** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:58 am

Conquest is always good.

As to the Kenshin spiel, you forgot Enishi!!! ^_^;;; Well, maybe not, considering his driving force was insanity, even before Tomoe died. @_@

Oo! I thought of a villain that has no real reason to be a villain other than the fact that he's a spoiled, whiney brat!

FlameHeart, from Orphen.

>_< That boy irritated me!! Granted, his mother corrupted him with being spoiled, but DAMN...

kittens · Post by **kittens** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:01 am

nephreena wrote: As to the Kenshin spiel, you forgot Enishi!!! ^_^;;; Well, maybe not, considering his driving force was insanity, even before Tomoe died. @_@

Oh yeah.... Do'h

Sorry

Mirai_Peorth · Post by **Mirai_Peorth** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:06 am

*pokes* Bad Kenshin fan! Bad!! LOL!!!!!

Baakay · Post by **Baakay** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:22 am

The bad guys who have reasons for their struggles are what make anime interesting. If not for them, we'd have... American cartoons! (ok, that was harsh...)

I have to agree with Krafty's question about some of them, though. I mean really. What is Hellmaster Phibrizzo's major malfunction, for example? The point of destroying EVERYTHING is that by definition, EVERYTHING includes you! So you're not around to enjoy the fruits of your labor. Or even to engage in a lifetime of self-flagellation, like Kenshin does. If you're not there... you're not there!

Ok, sure. I know that's the whole point. These nihilists are so crazed that whether they are there or not, the idea that THEY have destroyed it all is a motivating factor. Still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to basic old me. (But neither does the idea of blowing oneself up just to take out some others and make a point. Weird. I prefer my miserable, stress-ridden existence, thanks all the same.)

As an aside: one of the things that makes Kenshin just so yummy is that he occasionally drops back into the badguy mode. There's something so perfectly appalling about the moments when he drops all of the pretense -- even when he's not in Battousai mode -- and gets nasty-arrogant. The "you REALLY think you have a prayer of beating me?" sneer is such a completely jarring difference from his normal caring attitude that it sets things on side for a bit. You can understand the "killing machine" moments, and the "goofwad" moments, but what the heck is this other thing?

Which is one of the reasons Krafty's question appealed to me so much. It's a whole lot better and infinitely more interesting to live and breathe, even as a slightly deranged bad/good guy or good/bad guy, than to just whole hog say "if it can't be mine, it's going down with me!!"

kittens · Post by **kittens** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:50 am

Baakay wrote:The bad guys who have reasons for their struggles are what make anime interesting. If not for them, we'd have... American cartoons! (ok, that was harsh...)

LOL.....

This is soooooooooooooooo true

But I think there is an exception here..... I like x-men because of magnito

He has strong belief that he "has to" clean off normal ppl in order to keep safe for mutants...... This is why I like x-men.

Also for the same reason I like Batman as well.... He is also not a perfect good guy and many of bad guys have also "reasons" to be who they are.....

hanaeleh · Post by **hanaeleh** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:30 am

I guess it depends mostly on what bad guy you're talking about, but for quite a few of them, I would think their driving force is power. It doesn't matter if you destroy the world, as, like Baakay said, in the end, you were the one who decided such.

Most villians have some aspect of either their childhood or some earlier time which made them into a "villian," and oftentimes the pre-villian

is put into a situation where s/he is powerless against other forces. Magneto in X-Men saw the Nazis take his parents away, Vegeta's father was killed, etc. Even good ol' Kenshin's parents were killed... and Hiko definitely has some sort of power trip over him.

Sometimes the lack of power is represented by a sense of abandonment, either from parents who left or died, friends who turned on them or died, or loved ones who left... or (all together) died. Their lack of power to keep these people near them lead them to drive others away so they don't get hurt again and, at the same time, seek some sort of control (ie, power) so they don't have to deal with such issues again. Having power over people fills some sort of void- if you can dictate the fates of individuals (even if it means death)- then you are, again, the deciding factor, and cannot ever be abandoned again.

The villians' desire for power can be manifested in a desire to seek revenge on either a certain individual or on everyone in order to fill that void and to ensure that they will never be hurt in the future. Sometimes that desire can show itself through greed, but ultimately, the idea that they have some sort of security- and power- over someone else.

And then some of the villians are just plain nuts.

I guess they're fun, too, though.

In_Gabriel_We_Trust · Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:58 am

kittens wrote:Also for the same reason I like Batman as well.... He is also not a perfect good guy ...

Batman not a good guy ? Batman is a complete nutcase !

You really have got to love someone so messed up that he would start wearing a mask and become downright obsessed with fighting crime.

I have no theories about anime-baddies.
As for some of the anime good guys : they would find themselves a lot less stressed if they got a good night's... you-know-what... every once in a while.

Baakay · Post by **Baakay** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:02 am

kittens wrote:
Baakay wrote:The bad guys who have reasons for their struggles are what make anime interesting. If not for them, we'd have... American cartoons! (ok, that was harsh...)
LOL.....

This is soooooooooooooooo true

But I think there is an exception here..... I like x-men because of magnito He has strong belief that he "has to" clean off normal ppl in order to keep safe for mutants...... This is why I like x-men.

Also for the same reason I like Batman as well.... He is also not a perfect good guy and many of bad guys have also "reasons" to be who they are.....

I know

That was one of those "glittering generalities" my writing teachers used to warn us against. There really are a lot of decent American cartoons (although I've never seen X-men, so I'll have to take your word for it).

It's just so much funnier to state it in extremes!

Baakay · Post by **Baakay** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:07 am

In_Gabriel_We_Trust wrote:As for some of the anime good guys : they would find themselves a lot less stressed if they got a good night's... you-know-what... every once in a while.

MUAHAHAHA!!!! :hitting:

Okie dokie artichokie!! There's a whole lot of us who could proper from THAT little bit of wisdom!!

now I'm gonna be giggling all day. sheesh !!

kittens · Post by **kittens** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:19 am

Baakay wrote: It's just so much funnier to state it in extremes!

No worries, I always tease my hubby like this way

kittens · Post by **kittens** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:24 am

In_Gabriel_We_Trust wrote: Batman not a good guy ? Batman is a complete nutcase !
You really have got to love someone so messed up that he would start wearing a mask and become downright obsessed with fighting crime.

Oh yes he is

My hubby is totally obsessed with batman so he knows a lot of things.... and I guess he wears weired cloth to intimitate crimes. When he started fighting crimes he did not wear these costume so crimes fought against him a lot and he had hard time. So hefound out that if he wear weierd intimitating cloth, crimes do not fight against him so much......