just. . .

[kisara]

So. . . maybe I'm just tired. . .maybe it's cause I'm sick. . . maybe it's caused I've logged about 50-hours on this dang thing in this last three-days. I dunno. But I'm crying. Crying cause of beta stuff. Never cried about beta stuff before. Gotten kind of peeved, laughed my butt off, never cried before.

I have to say, because of recent happenings here in betaland. . . I'm truly afraid to speak my mind. And that's certainly never happened before.

Mods, dearest mods. . . I can't imagine how rough your jobs are. Honestly. . . to keep US in line? Ha! And you've done an awesome job. Truly. But the handling of this latest situation. . . I'm really trying very hard to understand how beloved, long-time beta members were treated the same as. . .

I'm just really, truly rather lost right now. I saw the thread. Yes, it was ugly. But I've seen worse. I've done worse and was not treated as the beta members (who have been members much longer than me ) have.

Help me understand this. And please,please know that I truly am not trying to start anything by this. I just think it needs to be aired-out. Between us all. A big family discussion like the big family y'all are to me. Because the thing that bothers me the most about this is that I can already feel it changing the entire vibe of this place. . . a vibe that I've COMPLETELY dug up until now. I don't want that.

Kate

[Baakay]

I will admit to also being completely mystified by some of the actions taken in the past couple of days -- at least if I am understanding them correctly. Especially since things seemed to be well on their way to being settled, in large part due to generous application of the "ignore" function and some pm's.

Taking quick steps to squelch a couple of serious troublemakers, I can understand, but... ?? *confuse* Maybe I missed something in the shuffle.

[Ashura]

Ummm, I don't understand......maybe I am not reading this right? *sorry*. But what is the situation? Is it not being able to speak your mind, or is this a private situation that I know nothing about? Regardless, I hope everything gets resolved *hugs*

If there is anything I can do to help, let me know, Kisara


Ashura

[Ashura]

I will admit to also being completely mystified by some of the actions taken in the past couple of days -- at least if I am understanding them correctly. Especially since things seemed to be well on their way to being settled, in large part due to generous application of the "ignore" function and some pm's.

Taking quick steps to squelch a couple of serious troublemakers, I can understand, but... ?? *confuse* Maybe I missed something in the shuffle.

Oh, if it was about the whole Momo thing, I don't mind people speaking their mind and disagreeing (I disagree all the time), but the name calling was uncalled for and the fact that he said that he had nothing to apologize for, well that took the cake for me.


Ashura

[kisara]

I just need to clarify. . . again. I really don't want to start anything with this. I just know that there's a lot of weird feelings floating around and I thought it would help if we could all just say what was on our minds. In a mature fashion, of course! That's all. Just talk. I just feel so much weirdness around here and I'd rather we all discuss it rather than go our seperate ways, ignore it, and let the feel of this place change from something that most of us really do love. That's all I want. Like I said. . . just a big ol' family talk. This wasn't meant to be a thread to flame the mods or what not.

[Sakura-chan]

I will just say this : same as Kisara.

I've only been here for 5 months I know, but you're all my family now and if any member of it is hurt, I am as well. Losing an important part of the family is like losing a part of what Beta really is all about.

So, I'd like to understand what is happening for the past days. Beta is one of the greatest things that ever happened to me, I'm not ready to see it all change and fade into what I've seen recently.

I am trying to keep an impartial eye in all this, but I will admit that I am disappointed in some actions, and I really wish to know why it was done this way.

I luv you all guys, so please try to work this out .

Sakura-chan

[Hakiri]

I feel the same as kisara, and it hurts to lose people from beta. I can't really add anything, as kisara's summed up just about how I feel. But I hope that this can all be resolved. And Sakura's right - beta is like a family, and I guess you could say there are family fueds, but losing people in this family really makes me sad. I hope things only get better from here.

[Cloud]

What is that feeling like? The same one again?

[kittens]

I am very very very sorry kisara!!!!!!!!!

Seriously I don't know what I should say......

I have not been able to check all messages lately so I cannot say anything but all I can say is I just loooooooooooooooooooove reading your threads and talking to you!

Also I am very sorry sakura-chan!

Maybe if I post more goofy threads (like Cloud ), I can cheer you guys

This is only a place I can talk about cels and fun stuff..... I do also hope that we all can work things out

HUGS

[Cloud]

Perhaps. Try it.

[monkeyboy]

you'll LIKE it!


Just had to be said.

[Cloud]

Yes I always have to be said.

[monkeyboy]

I guess I'm not on his ^ ignore list yet!

[Ms. Poe]

Being a cel collecting "elder" (cherish the thought...?) I can say I'm mystified too. I'm still mystified why my post about Animanga got shut down? If I left Yann's name completely out of it, would it still be up? What would be the difference? My post was open for suggestions to hopefully generate some interest in "beautifying" the animanga/cels.org operation, and MOSTLY to get people interested in making some awesome things happen for Beta .

There was no bashing or horrid outcries posted. Worst I saw was "Animanger". But that word has been used countless times on this board before =/.

I join in the mystification of the past week. The name calling on the "Haggling" thread was uncalled for. Momo has posted SEVERAL uncalled for "views", and yet people who speak their mind in a mature manner once get banned. I don't get it .

I hope my post isn't taken in the wrong way. Just like other members, I'm afraid to speak my mind. I just hope this can get resolved.

I hope momo got the same as the others suspended. If not, that's not right at all.

Thanx for listening to my concerns and suggestions. Hopefully...

[Deadly Whispers]

Hello, Beta. Please bear with me - I am about to put up a very long post, copies of the PMs sent between myself, IGWT, and Uende. Both have given me the permission to do so. Please feel free to discuss this with me, at any time. Kisara, I hope this at least answers your questions.

From: Deadly Whispers
To: In_Gabriel_We_Trust; Uende; momo
Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:09 pm
Subject: Conduct and the Buddy List
In_Gabriel_We_Trust; Uende; momo:

This PM will be sent to all three of you, as well as be copied for the benefit of the other mods in Anime-Beta. I must apologize, for I have both been sick and extremely busy with my work, and I am coming into this concern a little late.

I am referring to the flame-throwing we have witnessed in the General Cel Discussion forum, in the Haggling poll that sensei posted. And I am addressing the three of you, good and/or bad, because of these flames.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is one of the very foundations of polite society. And, along with that, everyone is welcome to disagree. It's pleasing to see that such discussions can be born on a simple site such as this, but the hatred is sickening.

You three, to my eyes and those of Magician, are the first (if you'll please excuse the expression) shit-disturbers. This is what leads to locked threads. Namely - NAME-CALLING (momo), VEILED INSULTS (IGWT and Uende), and outright threats as we've unfortunately seen lately all over the boards by varied members. It is time for us to take control of this once more.

Defending your opinions is fine, and is expected. But once the daggers are slung, it is time to take the arguments to chat, PM, or e-mail. We, the mods of Beta, cannot stress this enough. We want everyone to have a good time, and it's useless to pretend that some folks just don't mix - so keep it off the boards and out of the public eye, please. Magician has posted in this thread, reminding of the usage of the Contact Management. He gave us this hack, for both extremes of relationships, to help improve the family-centered emotions of Beta. Please, I implore you, use it and spread the word. We are not limited here to who we do and do not interact with!

Back to the point of this message: To help enforce our waning resources, and limited understanding of the true nature behind these flames, Magician and I are sending a warning to you three. Yes, it may be unfair. And yes, I will be available by chat, e-mail, or PM should any of you wish to vent at me. Or whatever. I know your screen names; I know your avatars; I would be pleased to continue to see them here.

Tonight, Magician will block the three of you from the boards for two days. You will still be able to view the forums, but you will not be able to post. Please use this time to sort out what has happened.

momo, I have something extra to say to you. Welcome to Beta. I am always thrilled to see new "faces." I truly mean this. However, I want to tell you that what you did in sensei's poll is not okay. You directly insulted IGWT, calling a NAME, what is with that? This is your first warning. If you continue this behavior on the public forums (we do not moderate chat, e-mail, or PM), we will extend your banning from two days to more. Please keep this in mind.

IGWT, Uende, please also keep this in mind. All we can ask for, is for our members to have respect even for those who have none themselves.

Your two-day suspension will be revoked Sunday, June 5th, around eight PM MDT.

Thank you all for your time,
Deadly Whispers

From: In_Gabriel_We_Trust
To: Deadly Whispers
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:31 am
Subject: Re: Conduct and the Buddy List Quote message
Hello Deadly Whispers,
Hello Magician,

We would like to start off be saying we are very disappointed in your reaction to the incident with Momo.

This person came onto the forum just a two weeks ago and
1) insulted stephen and anime museum business (rilezu thread)
2) insulted people who collect rilezu (rilezu thread)
3) insulted myself and mostly Uende by being condescending and patronising when we simply disagreed with his statement. (escaflowne thread)
4) insulted a large group of anime viewers by actually saying cel collectors are somehow “better” than everyone else (escaflowne thread)
5) actually called a group of collectors NOT SMART aka stupid (haggle thread)
6) and finally decided to go into name-calling, thereby crossing the line for a lot of members who showed their support for the both of us but first and foremost for what Beta stands for.

At no point during the whole incident (and we absolutely acknowledge the fact it is an unfortunate incident and not one of the prouder moments of the forum) did we feel we resorted to any strategy that opposes the fundamentals of the conduct act on Beta.

This is the version of every “clash” we had with momo :

MOMO : Grass is red.
UENDE : I think you’ll find grass is green.
MOMO : It’s red.
IGWT : No, I also believe it to be green.
MOMO : By saying red I meant green but you are too stupid to understand what I’m saying.
UENDE+IGWT: [disproving the red means green point]+ [insert proof of green grass 1] + [insert proof of green grass 2].
MOMO : DIRECT INSULT.

We find this reaction to be unfair as we feel we are getting blamed for receiving punches while trying to defect them without hitting back.
You say we are guilty of using VEILED INSULTS. If you feel this way, please tell us what they are as we will make every effort possible to make sure we will not fall back on such tactics in the future.

I, (IGWT), know that at some point I told momo he was using manipulative tricks to get this point through : - extremely long posts, - use of intricate sentences, - use of phrases like “you may not know this”, “everyone knows…”, “let’s be honest…”, “quoting other members and putting words in their mouths”.
This is the only time at wich I can find myself using what may be the veiled insults you are referring to. If this is what you mean, please tell me.

Deadly Whispers wrote:
Yes, it may be unfair. And yes, I will be available by chat, e-mail, or PM should any of you wish to vent at me. Or whatever. I know your screen names; I know your avatars; I would be pleased to continue to see them here.


If you know it is unfair, then why impose it? You say you know us. We’ve have been with Beta for over two years now and unless it has all been a lie, we believe to be liked and appreciated on the forum.
We understand that a warning or punishment may be in order if we went out of line, but we were hoping that we wouldn’t receive the same treatment as someone who established his persona in under two weeks. A persona which managed to piss off quite a lot of members once they caught wind of it.
Our biggest dissapoint lays in the fact it seems you are agreeing with momo by giving all of us the same punishment and thereby enforcing his point of view on how to act on the forum.
At this point, our initial reaction is feeling betrayed by the very people whose fantastic work we were defending.

However, we are not the kind of people to hold a grudge forever. Up till now, we have always been happy being Beta members, proven in full by the donation we recently made from IGWT's (B. Liessens) paypal account.
We will come back and we will be happy to do things in the best intrest of Beta altough at this moment it will be lesser involved than usual. But we do feel hurt at this point.


Kind regards,


Uende and In_Gabriel_We_Trust

From: Deadly Whispers
To: In_Gabriel_We_Trust; Uende
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:49 am
Subject: Re: Conduct and the Buddy List
Good morning.

Thank you, both, for taking the time to respond in a calm, thoughtful manner. I will do my best to respond in kind.

momo, we all agree, is antagonistic and utterly unaware of the etiquette and strong feelings that permeates Beta. In time, perhaps, he will come to understand it - his banning, and his warning (the warning does not extend to you or Uende) are meant to push him in that direction. His conduct, going outward, will be dealt with as it comes in.

To try to keep this coherent for myself, I will quote your PM.

Quote:
This person came onto the forum just a two weeks ago and

Yes, momo is a new user. Perhaps momo is even new to the whole online community thing. But new or not, flame-throwing applies to us all. It's something we all need to be careful of. Tenure on Beta does not allow anyone to start flame wars here. The mods can't use that - oh, well, he's just a newbie, it's time to slap him down - because that truly isn't fair.

Quote:
1) insulted stephen and anime museum business (rilezu thread)
2) insulted people who collect rilezu (rilezu thread)
3) insulted myself and mostly Uende by being condescending and patronising when we simply disagreed with his statement. (escaflowne thread)
4) insulted a large group of anime viewers by actually saying cel collectors are somehow “better” than everyone else (escaflowne thread)
5) actually called a group of collectors NOT SMART aka stupid (haggle thread)

Yes, all of these are a horrible way to present oneself in any situation! However, none of this is outright flaming. We - the Admin Team - have to draw that line between disagreements and full-blown war. Stephen is welcome to notify the mods of what is going on and to discuss the insult with the offender away from Beta. The other insulted members have these options as well. And we will warn, ban, lock - whatever is necessary to moderate. To keep the peace.

Quote:
6) and finally decided to go into name-calling, thereby crossing the line for a lot of members who showed their support for the both of us but first and foremost for what Beta stands for.

This is what made us take action. I saw this, and I wanted to scream - in anger, in disbelief, whatever. Inexcusable. Unforgivable. So momo has been issued his warning.

Quote:
We find this reaction to be unfair as we feel we are getting blamed for receiving punches while trying to defect them without hitting back.

Here, I will explain why all three of you were given a mandatory time-out. We ask that defending be kept off the boards. If you feel you must defend yourself, then the discussion has veered from the topic even if it is still about the topic. No one wants to read arguments - or if they do, they just want to jump in and make them bigger. We cannot allow this any longer. When it gets to that point, we mods are looking to you to help keep Beta a non-anger community. Take your defenses to chat, to PM, and to e-mail. Send a heads up to any mod. We will step in and support you. That's what we're here for.

We've received complaints from both sides - that we are power-hungry topic-lockers, and that Beta is becoming a place no one wants to come to because of flames. For some time now, we have been treading lightly. Casually. Asking please, keep this stuff off the boards. And these examples of the Escaflowne thread and the Haggling thread show that no one is listening. The moderators are no longer going to be casual. Unfortunately, this is the first example of what we will do going forward.

Quote:
If you know it is unfair, then why impose it?

A flame may start with one person, but it only takes one snippy response to make it spread. I say that it may be unfair - meaning, from your perspective. But I want you both to know that, while momo was WRONG WRONG WRONG, you two are not scot-free. Please, don't fan the flames in public. Your suspension is to give you time to think, to sort it out, to send hate mail or whatever. In the future, be proactive. The moment you are disgruntled, break yourself out of the thread and continue the discussion elsewhere. We believe that this will help steer Beta in the right direction.

Quote:
We’ve have been with Beta for over two years now and unless it has all been a lie, we believe to be liked and appreciated on the forum.

I believe you are as well. But being moderators means that we cannot be partial to anyone. This is the choice of the Admin Team, not your fellow members. This is also why none of this has been made public - unless you wish to share, no one will hear it from us.

Quote:
Our biggest dissapoint lays in the fact it seems you are agreeing with momo by giving all of us the same punishment and thereby enforcing his point of view on how to act on the forum.

Right now, I cannot respond to this. momo has not yet received the PM. If he does not by the time that the suspension is lifted, we will address him again, with a more personal tilt, to strengthen his warning. But this will be between him and the moderators.

Quote:
This is the only time at wich I can find myself using what may be the veiled insults you are referring to. If this is what you mean, please tell me.

This deserves consideration. I will see what I can find that raised flags with us:

From Uende
Quote:
First off: I really have to say this time that it never fails to amaze me how degrading and patronising you talk to the rest of the collectors on this board in your posts momo.
Believe me, I’m certainly not the only one to think this.

Response, defense. Veiled . . . threat, actually, the last line. Should not have been said publicly. Shit-disturbing.

From you
Quote:
You are indeed titled to your opinion.
But if this involves calling a group of cel collectors “not smart”, meaning “dumb”, or in reference to the Escaflowne-thread, that cel collectors are “better”, no matter what contextually excuse you are making, you can be sure that people like Uende, who recognise the insults and who are not afraid to stand up against them, will keep going up against you.

An agreement to continue the heat. This last line is exactly what the moderators are trying to avoid. More shit-disturbing.

From Uende
Quote:
Yes...by all means..you do that! Smile
And in turn I'll just keep in mind that there are people out there who just love to hear themselves talk... Smile

Veiled insult.

As for adding you, IGWT, into the veiled insult, I retract it. And I apologize. I am sorry (seriously). I did put the behavior of both Uende and yourself together to try to be diplomatic, and it came out just kinda stupid. But these, again, are what prompted us to take action. At no point were the moderators appealed to, which, again, is why we're here. Let us help.

No, you are not the only ones who responded angrily. Yes, momo is the perpetrator - antagonist. But this was our decision.

Quote:
Up till now, we have always been happy being Beta members, proven in full by the donation we recently made from IGWT's (B. Liessens) paypal account.

I admit that I know nothing about this. The donations are handled by Goldknight, and this incident is from Magician and myself. All I can say is, thank you, from all of us, for caring enough to help pay for Beta.

I'm afraid I'm out of time to scour through the Escaflowne thread, but I will be around again later should either of you wish to talk. Thanks, again, for giving me your ears and your time!

~ Deadly Whispers

From: In_Gabriel_We_Trust
To: Deadly Whispers
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:08 am
Subject: Re: Conduct and the Buddy List Quote message
Deadly Whispers wrote:
Good morning.

Thank you, both, for taking the time to respond in a calm, thoughtful manner. I will do my best to respond in kind.


Good evening (I live in the future, no flying cars yet though. ^_^)

First of all, I would like to thank you for your quick response. I appreciate this a lot.

However, I still feel hurt because :

Quote:
This person came onto the forum just a two weeks ago and

Deadly Whispers wrote:
Yes, momo is a new user. Perhaps momo is even new to the whole online community thing. But new or not, flame-throwing applies to us all. It's something we all need to be careful of. Tenure on Beta does not allow anyone to start flame wars here. The mods can't use that - oh, well, he's just a newbie, it's time to slap him down - because that truly isn't fair.


I fully understand tenure on Beta does not give privileges over newbies.


Deadly Whispers wrote:
This is what made us take action. I saw this, and I wanted to scream - in anger, in disbelief, whatever. Inexcusable. Unforgivable. So momo has been issued his warning.


and

Deadly Whispers wrote:
But I want you both to know that, while momo was WRONG WRONG WRONG, you two are not scot-free.


These two statements lead me to believe you too (and hopefully the admins as a group) see a clear difference in the actions between Uende and myself and momo.

However, as we all received the same punishment, I feel we were treated unfair.
We didn't start the fight, we got involved because of our love - yes, love - for beta and what it stands for. I will not deny we could have handled it better but I do strongly believe we did what had to be done at the time in the way it had to be done. The reason I believe this is because of the numerous replies we got from other members both in the thread and in PM's.

Deadly Whispers wrote:
I admit that I know nothing about this. The donations are handled by Goldknight, and this incident is from Magician and myself. All I can say is, thank you, from all of us, for caring enough to help pay for Beta.

I must apologize if this bit seemed like "leverage". I am actually very happy you did not know about the donation when you wrote the initial PM. I only brought it up as an example as to how we view Beta.

Conclusion : I fully understand the need for letting us know we crossed a line. However, I feel it was unfair to treat us in the same manner as momo. Based on the punishment given, I feel a "stern warning" for the both of us and the two day ban for momo would have been more appropriate.

I also know I tend to write "from the head" while Uende tends to write "from the heart". I lack "heart". That's why I am so happy a great person such as her is their to remind me (and us) that having a big heart is in fact a positive thing.

Kind regards,

Gabe

From: Deadly Whispers
To: In_Gabriel_We_Trust
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:21 pm
Subject: Re: Conduct and the Buddy List
Greetings!

Yes. From the start, we knew that there was a difference between momo and yourselves. I don't know if that really makes a difference, but it is true.

As I mentioned, I will deal with momo on a different level, between himself and me. This temporary suspension . . . I don't know that it was meant to be a punishment, per se. I needed to grab attention, right now, so that all involved know that I am dead serious and am through hinting and asking on the boards in a roundabout way. And I have. I have acheived what I meant to.

I needed to have all of you removed for a reason. It is all right if you disagree; I am taking that responsibility. I am no longer an active part of the cel community - I was never a loud part of it when I joined Anime-Alpha in late 2001. The Admin Team is a part of Beta, a part of its memberlist. Aside from Magician (who doesn't even like anime) and myself. We do all work together, and none of us will take any action if there is a majority of dissent. But this is why he and I have decided to start our roles as the enforcers. It will not hurt us to be the evil face, so to speak.

But the bad feelings I read, and belive me I felt them too, in these threads because of momo's thoughtlessnes, I did not think would stop if I merely asked for cooperation from peers. The quickest, and most attention-grabbing, way was to remove the three who were the most hurt or hurtful on the public boards. This time-out is like a school suspension. If students get in a serious fight, all are removed so that all can cool off. I didn't wish to see anything more about/against momo while momo was unable to post. Granted, I couldn't be guaranteed that either you or Uende would do something like that, but others might have to defend you in your place. And the problem would grow, especially because hurt feelings prompt just one last jab in just one last post so often . . .

Please understand that I have nothing against any of you. Not even momo, because I was not part of any of these discussions so what do I care? But I do care about Beta's face, as my friend David did. What I am doing now is asking Beta, a member at a time, to clean the dirty laundry away from our faces rather than airing it for all to see. What goes on off the boards is definitely no concern of mine. And your desire to defend not only yourselves, but Beta, is admirable. I am asking now, help the Admin Team by getting us involved.

I will say this. This was brought to our attention by a Beta member. The PM sent to Magician essentially said this: "Hey, idiot slackers, go check this out and get off your lazy butts!" That is acceptable - welcomed! It was a good slap in the face for all of us.

I hear you. I hear the grievance about the "equal treatment," and it makes sense. I will take it to heart, and should a situation like this arise again with other members, I will keep you in mind. Thank you.

I think I've bent your ear enough. I apologize, again, for waiting all these months for us moderators to do our jobs.

Cheers,
Deadly Whispers

From: Uende
To: Deadly Whispers
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:22 am
Subject: Re: Conduct and the Buddy List Quote message
Hello,

Thank you for your reply.

I want to start off by saying I am writing this PM out of my own name and would like to emphasize that In_Gabriel_We_Trust has absolutely nothing to do with what I am going to write.
So if you are going to ban me for life after reading this; please do not be "diplomatic" again and ban him too.
Truth is; he doesn’t even know I am writing this, because if he did he would probably try and stop me, seeing he’s the wiser one of us two.
Come to think of it, he may be right, but seeing as I am honestly pretty emotional after been treated this way, so be it.

I am truly and utterly disappointed in the way you and Magician are handling this situation. Both Gabe and I are certainly not "flamers" nor are we "troublemakers", we have been on this board for over two years and we could not have made the amount of posts we currently have, if we were either one. To be treated as such is a true unfairness. If you wanted to let us know you did not tolerate our “behaviour” a simple warning would have been more than sufficient.

What happened in the "Haggle" thread was not intended as a flame war. As you may have noticed I have only responded twice to Momo and let his most insulting posts go by, just because I had said my piece and did not wanted it to drag on and result into an unnecessary back and forth slinging of insults.
I know what Beta stands for and therefore am truly hurt that I received the same "punishment" as a newbie who desperately needed to be told what Beta is about. If the moderators fail to do their job, you might find that members who do care about Beta and what it stands for may step in from time to time.

I'm also disappointed in the lack of involvement the moderators seem to have with Beta these days. This situation got way out of hand and could have been avoided if moderators would have stepped in earlier. Now, after things have settled, you are passing judgement; looking for a guilty party, and putting us on the same level as Momo.

You say we should not defend Beta and leave things up to moderators to handle. Alas, I have seen other threads were things got out of hand, and to my surprise none of the moderators stepped in. In fact; a lot of the moderators have been glorious in absence.

Numerous Beta members have PM-ed me during this ordeal that they were glad I had the courage to post what they were thinking and thanked me for it because someone finally did something. Also numerous Beta members PM-ed me after Momo made his insulting posts, telling me they supported both Gabe and me.

Normally I would not use such overly strong comments to a Beta member, but this time I was only reacting to the conceding and degrading way Momo talked to all Beta members.
In fact, in some remarks he was adamantly lying to us, pretending to personally know certain people while I happen to know for a fact he absolutely doesn't.

But you can rest assured I have learned my lesson.
You will be happy to hear that if I do decide to come back, I will restrain my posts as much as possible and will not participate again with any "activities" organised on Beta; such as organising the Beta Cel Awards for the third time or make suggestions to help "improve" Beta.

If I do decide to return to Beta at all I will most certainly not be as involved as I was used to be, simply because I can not go back feeling the same as I used to, after been stabbed in the back by the very same forum I was trying to defend.

So please no worries; no more “veiled insult” remarks from (perhaps former) Beta member Uende.

Best regards,
Wendy

From: Deadly Whispers
To: Uende
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: Conduct and the Buddy List
Greetings.

I can't help but smile. Today has been rather sad for me, but it is a responsibility that I chose with my eyes open. Uende, in no way, shape, or form, has it been considered to ban you for life from Beta. Nothing of the kind has been considered, nor will it be. I left this open so that we could communicate, though I am a bit of a villain. It's all right - tell me anything that is on your mind. I will listen, and I will not attack you. I have no reason, or will, to do such a thing - I understand the difference between breaking Beta's ground rules and having someone angry at me. The latter is personal, and I hold no authority over your feelings. Please, rest a little easier for that.

Quote:
Both Gabe and I are certainly not "flamers" nor are we "troublemakers", we have been on this board for over two years and we could not have made the amount of posts we currently have, if we were either one.

I take a deep breath here. It is true that neither of you are intentional troublemakers or flamers, but it has struck us more than once how heavy-handed both of you can be in regards to the true flamers and troublemakers. We should have stepped forward long before now, but the Admin Team has great respect for you both. I think . . . that we couldn't bring ourselves to say anything. That has changed. I have accepted the fact that I am no longer an active part of the cel community (I was never a loud part of it when I joined Anime-Alpha in late 2001). If I am a villain, it will not harm anyone I come in contact with as I have removed myself from the buying, selling, and communing. So I am telling you now - I needed to get your attention. Forgive me for taking so long to do so.

I have written again to Gabe, to his second response. I will put a bit of that response here, to help explain further why I took the action I did.

"As I mentioned, I will deal with momo on a different level, between himself and me. This temporary suspension . . . I don't know that it was meant to be a punishment, per se. I needed to grab attention, right now, so that all involved know that I am dead serious and am through hinting and asking on the boards in a roundabout way. And I have. I have acheived what I meant to.

I needed to have all of you removed for a reason. It is all right if you disagree; I am taking that responsibility.

The bad feelings I read, and belive me I felt them too, in these threads because of momo's thoughtlessnes, I did not think would stop if I merely asked for cooperation from peers. The quickest, and most attention-grabbing, way was to remove the three who were the most hurt or hurtful on the public boards. This time-out is like a school suspension. If students get in a serious fight, all are removed so that all can cool off. I didn't wish to see anything more about/against momo while momo was unable to post. Granted, I couldn't be guaranteed that either you or Uende would do something like that, but others might have to defend you in your place. And the problem would grow, especially because hurt feelings prompt just one last jab in just one last post so often . . .

Please understand that I have nothing against any of you. Not even momo, because I was not part of any of these discussions so what do I care? But I do care about Beta's face, as my friend David did. What I am doing now is asking Beta, a member at a time, to clean the dirty laundry away from our faces rather than airing it for all to see. What goes on off the boards is definitely no concern of mine. And your desire to defend not only yourselves, but Beta, is admirable. I am asking now, help the Admin Team by getting us involved.

I will say this. This was brought to our attention by a Beta member. The PM sent to Magician essentially said this: "Hey, idiot slackers, go check this out and get off your lazy butts!" That is acceptable - welcomed! It was a good slap in the face for all of us.

I hear you. I hear the grievance about the "equal treatment," and it makes sense. I will take it to heart, and should a situation like this arise again with other members, I will keep you in mind. Thank you."

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I'm also disappointed in the lack of involvement the moderators seem to have with Beta these days. This situation got way out of hand and could have been avoided if moderators would have stepped in earlier.

This is a very valid concern. This weekend, discussion has gone on between the moderators about this. I am taking it one step further.

No one knows better when things are getting out of hand than someone who is part of the actual discussion. If it pleases you, you may send any mod a heads up to let them know they've missed something. Beta is so large, and so full of varied opinions! What may be offensive to some may not offend the mod of that forum, so they need to be told and they can choose what action to take. I can't tell you how much this would mean to us, to keep us on our toes.

Quote:
You will be happy to hear that if I do decide to come back, I will restrain my posts as much as possible and will not participate again with any "activities" organised on Beta; such as organising the Beta Cel Awards for the third time or make suggestions to help "improve" Beta.

If I do decide to return to Beta at all I will most certainly not be as involved as I was used to be, simply because I can not go back feeling the same as I used to, after been stabbed in the back by the very same forum I was trying to defend.

This is entirely your decision. This is your life, correct? I am only a moderator on Beta - and my happiness would be sadly misplaced if I took joy in such statements as these. I wish for you to enjoy what you do, and that includes visiting Beta if and when you do. You have not been banned yet, as you can still view Beta and use the PMs; your membership is in no danger from anything you might say to me.

I think I've bent your ear enough. I apologize, again, for waiting all these months for us moderators to do our jobs.

Cheers,
Deadly Whispers

From: Deadly Whispers
To: kisara; In_Gabriel_We_Trust; Uende
Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 7:41 am
Subject: just . . .
Hello, Kisara.

I decided to answer you in PM because this incident here on Beta is between momo, Gabe, Wendy, myself, and Magician. As I told Wendy and Gabe, we will not bring this to the public boards unless they do - or ask us to. So you may ask them, if you like, and when their posting ability is restored tonight we can see if all of Beta should be made aware. I respect their privacy and their rights to decide this. Smile If they say that it is all right - or if they say that it is all right for me to share what has passed between us with you, then I will.

I will say this, however. Uende and In_Gabriel_We_Trust are two great members. That was never in question. However, it is time for the moderators to moderate, so that the members don't have to anymore. This cool-off period, I hope, will help us make Beta a stronger place.

I will copy Uende and IGWT - I'm sure your concern will mean a lot to them!

~ Deadly Whispers

From: Uende
To: Deadly Whispers
Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:37 am
Subject: Re: Kisara's post Quote message
Of course I can not speak for Gabe, but I have absolutely no problems whatsoever with this thread, nor any objections if the moderators feel the need to explain the situation.

And as an extra assurance to the moderators; I have no desire or plans to post in it after the suspension is lifted.

Wendy

From: In_Gabriel_We_Trust
To: Deadly Whispers
Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:00 am
Subject: Re: Kisara's post Quote message
Deadly Whispers wrote:
Hello, Kisara.

I decided to answer you in PM because this incident here on Beta is between momo, Gabe, Wendy, myself, and Magician. As I told Wendy and Gabe, we will not bring this to the public boards unless they do - or ask us to. So you may ask them, if you like, and when their posting ability is restored tonight we can see if all of Beta should be made aware. I respect their privacy and their rights to decide this. Smile If they say that it is all right - or if they say that it is all right for me to share what has passed between us with you, then I will.

I will say this, however. Uende and In_Gabriel_We_Trust are two great members. That was never in question. However, it is time for the moderators to moderate, so that the members don't have to anymore. This cool-off period, I hope, will help us make Beta a stronger place.

I will copy Uende and IGWT - I'm sure your concern will mean a lot to them!

~ Deadly Whispers


Hey DW,

I have no problem whatsoever with Mods releasing the information concerning what has happened, as there seems to be a need for this from other members.

I also want you to know I'll add no fuel to the fire. (anything I feel the need to tell about the situation will be done via PM and will not contain any point of view you are not aware of already).

sincerely

Gabe

There you have it . . . It's a long read, but each one of us has some excellent concerns and points, in my mind.

~ Deadly Whispers