and thus she begins. . .

Cloud · Post by **Cloud** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:53 pm

Who is really a way to look at this issue properly?

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:10 pm

Maybe it IS time we stopped looking for the quick fix and think ahead a few decades. Maybe we wouldn't be as dependant on foreign oil if we could find a way to manufacture cleaner running cars with better mileage or alternative fuels. What a concept! Actually solving a problem rather than putting a bandaid on it and hoping it will heal.

Cloud · Post by **Cloud** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:10 pm

Perhaps. It is about that time now.

Not Sir Phobos · Post by **Not Sir Phobos** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:30 pm

Better yet, lets start making dilithium crystals!

Then we can beam ourselves EVERYWHERE!!

We're going to have to wait for bio engineering to catch up though because the demand for Scotties will rise.

Obviously I'm kidding,

You can't just say we need to stop trying to fix the current problem becase tomorrow we SHOULD invent technology that will deliver us from oil. Currently BILLIONS of people are dependant on oil so the issue will obviously be around for a great while.

However, that is not saying that companies are not working on alternative power and fuel sources. Just in my lifetime we went from a 10-15 mpg standard to hybreds that get astronomical fuel consumption rates.

The gears of change are turning but for now we do need oil.

vapalla · Post by **vapalla** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:30 pm

That's ok Notsirphobos, while I don't necessarilly agree with you, I still respect your opinion. Actually, we have one of those hybrid Prius's and the gas milage rocks! At the Baltimore Harbor you can rent another energy efficient vehicle, a Segway to go touring around the sites. I also read that the little lights that you see in electronic equiptment are now being developed to replace lightbulbs; super energy efficient! So you never know what might come next...

Not Sir Phobos · Post by **Not Sir Phobos** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:09 pm

vapalla wrote:That's ok Notsirphobos, while I don't necessarilly agree with you, I still respect your opinion. Actually, we have one of those hybrid Prius's and the gas milage rocks! At the Baltimore Harbor you can rent another energy efficient vehicle, a Segway to go touring around the sites. I also read that the little lights that you see in electronic equiptment are now being developed to replace lightbulbs; super energy efficient! So you never know what might come next...

And to add to that our Dodge /Chrysler dealership sells GEM electric vehicles. They are very cool!

Baakay · Post by **Baakay** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:20 pm

Oddly enough... for once I partially agree with Not Sir Phobos on a controversial issue. (Sign of the Apocalypse??

)

For the short term at least we DO need oil -- and not just for motor vehicles. Think of all the gazillions of things we use that are made of plastic of one form or another; almost all of these are petroleum-based. Our current life would come to a screeching halt without plastic.

The trick with this particular bill that got defeated is to try to untangle it a little. It's SO emotionally charged. You have the issues Crystal raised which are equally as valid as the issues Blueheaven raised. You have the very long-standing attempt to get cars to have better fuel mileage, which has been going on at least since the 70's that I know of (there was nothing quite so much fun as spending a date circling the city looking for gas for a muscle car. Woo.). You have the confusing mix of the military action going on, which, rightfully or not, many believe is primarily about protecting US oil interests in the Middle East, and the quite understandable desire to protect what little wilderness there is left on the planet from unnecessary development.

I'm glad the bill didn't pass for the moment. It would take a much wiser person than I to tease out what the best course of action is from all these legitimate and competing interests, without also having to weigh the decision against military spending and hurricane relief!!

Because as distasteful as I find the armed action in the middle east, I sure as heck don't want the guys over there working without the tools they need. They're just doing their jobs. And there's no legitimate argument to be made against hurricane relief. Maybe now all of these separate issues can be considered on their own merits.

Not Sir Phobos · Post by **Not Sir Phobos** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:43 pm

Baakay wrote:Oddly enough... for once I partially agree with Not Sir Phobos on a controversial issue. (Sign of the Apocalypse?? )

The horsemen are comming

Baakay · Post by **Baakay** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:44 pm

Not Sir Phobos wrote:
Baakay wrote:Oddly enough... for once I partially agree with Not Sir Phobos on a controversial issue. (Sign of the Apocalypse?? )

The horsemen are comming

Neigh

Cloud · Post by **Cloud** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:44 pm

Are all

x The horsemen comming l[quote]

Neigh?

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:18 pm

Baakay wrote:Because as distasteful as I find the armed action in the middle east, I sure as heck don't want the guys over there working without the tools they need. They're just doing their jobs. And there's no legitimate argument to be made against hurricane relief. Maybe now all of these separate issues can be considered on their own merits.

The good news is, the Bush camp is going to resubmit the troop funds and relief money bill without the drilling act attached. So, the troops will be fine.

I am a realist, and I know we need oil to run our cars. However, under our current system we have enough oil in reserve for the next quarter century. In that time, I'm sure we can write a bil that would give tax breaks to car companies who make fuel efficiency a priority, as well as the folks who buy them. Their should be incentives to buying cleaner burning cars with high gas mileage, aside from the savings. Plus, we need to teach common sense. Instead of buying that Navigator(which costs $35K and gets 9MPG), buy the Scion or Element(which costs $20-30K and gets 30MPG). And anyone who buys a Humvee, well, they should be knocked over the head with a sock full of quarters and sent to Iraq with a gun to get the oil to run them.

But not really.

Crystal · Post by **Crystal** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:26 pm

Alaskans have been a chorus in the wilderness on this matter for more than 20 years. It's too much to expect that they should listen to us now. Never mind that the bill did pass once but Clinton vetoed it. Also please ignore the fact land in ANWR was set aside for oil exploration. I am just a bit tired of Alaska being treated as a second class state. They lock up 1/3 of the state in federal land and parks yet conveniently back out on the promises made when Alaska became a state. I have an outlandish idea though, why not lock up 1/3 of every state and not permit people to live there or develop the land. Hmm. . .

It's nice that they want to give the areas devastated by hurricane Katrina 3.1 billion dollars in total to rebuild. Let me think, after the 9.2 earthquake that devastated Anchorage and drowned Valdez and caused widespead damage (second largest quake ever) what did Alaska get? Oh, right. I'm pretty sure it was $0. There were low interest loans available however. But that was before my time so I only have the word of people who actually lived through it.

Thank you Baakay, for looking at both sides of the issue. It's something not many people are willing to do.

You've brought up a very valid point that oil isn't just about cars and trucks and gas milage.

Thank you also NSP.

You used humor to make the exact point. It's impossible to end our dependance on oil any time soon. Since human cloning is a no-no I think we're out of luck in the Scotty department.

To address the current price of oil you'd have to talk to the roughly 1 billion Chinese who have developed a taste for driving everywhere.

I drive a fuel efficient small car but last time I checked it did not run on "sunshine and farts."

vapalla · Post by **vapalla** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:27 pm

I hope you don't think I'm an extremist about this subject, I just think that if we aren't even going to see any oil from this site in 10 years, we'd be better off spending the next decade decreasing our need for oil in the first place than destroying an ecosystem for only a pittance of oil that will hardly solve the problem. Soon enough, we will be back where we are now but with no place left to drill.

BUT ... Even so, Baakay's right that the ultimate problem with this bill was the way it was tacked onto another bill on military spending and hurricane relief to make sure it went through. Clearly the fear was that otherwise it wouldn't have the support to go through.

BTW Electric cars sound good too. I also know someone whose car runs off of grease from a chinese restaurant. It smells like take-out!

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:06 pm

Crystal, I'm sure you are passionate about this situation and all, but there is a better way to handle this than posting veiled insults and rude comments. Try posting something less smarmy next time.

And, to set the record straight, the US Federal govt. gave Alaska over $400 million in relief aid almost immediately. Airlines also pitched in and provided airlifts to victims trapped by flood waters. The same thing happened three years later with the Fairbanks flood of the Chena river.

vapalla · Post by **vapalla** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:24 pm

last time I checked it did not run on "sunshine and farts."

actually, according to this article Sensei introduced me to, maybe it could!

http://www.actahort.org/books/163/163_19.htm

Crystal, please, You shouldn't take this thread so personally. Also what is said here is not going to convince the government to do one thing or the other anyway. It's just chatting.