Finished watching Evangelion.......my head hurts....

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

It's exactly because of my religious studies that made me dislike Eva. Christianity is viewed as a theatrical-cult by the Japanese (and I'm sure others) and Eva is Anno's mockery of Christianity.

Well in viewing many different animes over the years , I have never seen that type of bias against Christianity and did not pick that up from viewing Eva . But if you did then your free to believe that.

Exactly. But it's not just my opinion. I do tend to research things before formulating solid opinions and I've seen this mentioned in enough articles to believe it to be true. It supports how I felt about the series from the beginning.

I don't think most animes deal with Christianity, aside from superficial lexicon usage you'd see in Hellsing, Trinity Blood, Chrono Crusade, etc. But I said Japanese culture, not strictly anime. It's not isolated to Japan and not a blanket condition in Japan, either. Isn't that true for a large majority of the world tho? There are certain overarching mysteries about cultures different from our own and they can be alluring as well as distancing. We rarely take the time to do research about these differences and instead take on a xenophobic or jingoistic point of view.

I respect Anno's work because he did approach Christianity the way he did but I don't think he should've directed it. In my opinion, he's not a visionary artist. Gainax has a reputation for "bad endings" but if you look closer, the worst endings were those fashioned by Anno. I think Gainax is a strong studio, despite him. He's a better writer than he is a director, anymore. I definitely prefer his older (directorial) works, like Gunbuster and Princess Nadia.

[GuyvarIII]

I’d really like someone to explain to me the relevance of the giant cross-shaped explosion from the first fight. If you don’t know what I’m talking about here’s a clip from Youtube ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWgQMsaa ... ed&search= ) check 2:02. I always thought the cross was a representation of the weight of our sins and our redemption rather than a force of destruction.

I’d also like someone to explain to me why the three computers are the 3 Kings. As far as I know they never presented Shinji with gifts representing aspects of his divinity nor do they reveal him to the nations.

To me it seemed like the creator just thought it would be kewl.

For religious fiction I’ll turn to Milton. For giant bots I’ll check out Eva.

[majinuub]

I remember watching the series in 1 sitting over 5 yrs ago. I haven't seen it since. I was like WTH. I mean I like the series and understood(at least I hope I did) what was trying to be said. But I didn't expect the series to progress the way it did. My fav. episode is "both of you, dance like you want to win".

I was planning on buying the DVD's and rewatching it again, but after the re-releases and directors cut versions I said forget it.

[RoboFlonne]

Wowwy!!!! Over the past two days everyone has been wanting to buy something! I've been busy non-stop! Please let me rest! Gomen.

Sorry, but I've been busy non-stop since after thanksgiving!


One reason that Evangelion is praised by many as being a revolutionary anime, is because it means something different to everyone.

Baakay's and JWR's views on Evangelion were that the Christian and Jewish/Kabalistic symbolism was something that was a nice addition but not the Central point of Evangelion.

The main focus of Evangelion is the Characters Themselves and the religious and psychology references are to make the anime "cool". Anno is not deeply religious and just thought that Crosses and the Sephira would make the anime "cool". I have The Case of Asuka Langeley, The Case of Rei Ayanami, The Case of Asuka's Stepmom, and The Case of Misato, if you want to read them and see why Evangelion is so much deeper in the way it lets you almost know the characters as if you've known them since they were children.

I've already posted on a previous page a paraphrase of The Case of Gendou Ikari... so as you don't think that Gendou is a Psychopathic Wife killer. The Wife was the one with the plan. Yui recruited Gendou to fulfill her dream.

For me, I don’t like Eva. I don’t identify with Shinji, I hate him, and the story revolves around him. I didn’t like his compatriots, surrogate sleaze mom (Misato), sad passive girl (Rei), and self absorbed über bitch (Asuka) either. -GuyverIII-

Evangelion is a normal Harem Anime if you omit the ending.

Without Episodes 25 and 26, Evangelion would have been a normal Harem type anime, with Misato, Rei, and Asuka around shinji. And Evangelion would have been forgotten. GuyverIII is right on the mark about Shinji being the lame ordinary boy surrounded by girls. Without the End of Evangelion, Eva would be a normal Harem Anime.


I'll try to answer these questions from memory. I have the exact quotes and canon information on my laptop in the attic, which I haven't used in like 2 years

It's exactly because of my religious studies that made me dislike Eva. Christianity is viewed as a theatrical-cult by the Japanese (and I'm sure others) and Eva is Anno's mockery of Christianity.-WC-

I’d really like someone to explain to me the relevance of the giant cross-shaped explosion from the first fight.

To me it seemed like the creator just thought it would be kewl. -GuyverIII-

I'd like to group Toni and Guyver's questions together, since Anno said it himself in a quote that The Cross like Explosions and The Crosses that popped up across the road were simply "cool"

GuyverIII is exactly right!

Anno thought that Crosses and religious symbolism looked cool and therefore used it in Evangelion.

The quotes are on a hardrive on an old laptop I don't use anymore.

A lot of what Chris said is how I feel as well. Misato suffered from an elektra complex, while Shinji acted out his own oedipal desires. -Toni-

Misato's dad died to save her. I don't see any references of Misato wanting to sleep with her dad. Misato sleeps with Kaji alot to escape stress and thanks Kaji for helping her. However, Misato never thinks of Kaji as a father type figure.

Shinji likes Asuka as a future wife... it's easy to tell, since He masterbates over a comatized Asuka.

Shinji likes Rei as a mom... Shinji tells Rei that Rei would be a good mom one day. It's really sweet.

To me it's a perfect example of the theory put forth by the Schrodinger's cat scenario. -JWR-

Schrodinger was a genius! I Absolutely love him! I'll have to look into the cat scenario... Thanks for bringing that up. I love the way that I always learn something new when we talk about evangelion ! ~_~ It's really amazing!

I wanted something like the God Father to show up, slap him around, tell him to “be a MAN!” and then end. Instead his reincarnated mother chooses him over his father; he gets to inherit the world, and learn to like himself. To me, he seemed like the same loser. -GuyverIII-

He is the same loser. Anno says that he's more like Shinji then any of the character... and Anno's like you Guyver! Anno doesn't like Shinji. I've seen his interviews and he says that his favorite character is Asuka and he also wishes that Shinji is more heroic... But Shinji's actions reflects Anno's state of mind as he made Evangelion. Anno was depressed and Shinji's despondent reactions and helplessness was how Anno felt.

If you're like Toni and dislike both Anno and Shinji, well you'll be glad to hear that you are consistent, since both of them were once the same person.

Anno= the director
Shinji= his protrayal of Anno's feelings

I’d also like someone to explain to me why the three computers are the 3 Kings. As far as I know they never presented Shinji with gifts representing aspects of his divinity nor do they reveal him to the nations. -GuyverIII-

Once again, The Magi was chosen because it probably sounded "cooler" then the 3 Shepards!!!



Back to being serious!... Shinji probably wasn't Jesus. Shinji would be much more like Adam or a man fallen from grace. Shinji was how Anno was feeling and definitely Anno wasn't feeling like Jesus.


The part Anno focused on was the 3 personalities of the Magi. Naoko who is also Ritsuko's mom had her personality transplanted with the Naoko as a woman, Naoko as a mother, and Naoko as a scientist. I love the way how the Magi "Caspar" or the "Naoko as a woman Magi" rejected Ritsuko's plan of Revenge, and chose Gendo instead of her own daughter.

I believe that's why the Magi System was chosen to be three parts. To flesh out Ritsuko's mommy!

It's really awesome how Anno fleshed out even a itsy bitsy minor character like Naoko through the Magi System.






I'm going to stop here and see If anyone here has the New Platinum collection for sale... Or the Directors cuts... I would like to buy them for christmas. If I continue to talk, most of you will probably run away screaming at the monitor!

[Not Sir Phobos]

I love you robo

[RoboFlonne]

Luv you to NSP!

Lovu Lovu Luvu Luvu!

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

Misato says in some episode (dunno the #) that she saw a lot of her dad in Kaji. It looks like emotional transference, otherwise why even mention the echo in the characters unless it meant something? Mentioning the similarity automatically makes it significant to her character. With only so much time dedicated to each character's development, the core aspects of their nature must surface quickly.

Given the freudian references throughout Eva (absolute terror field, the terms "first child, second child, third child," Shinji's patricidal urges...), I can only conclude that she is meant to symbolize an elektra-esque character, among other things. The fact that her dad was a sacrificial hero when she was very young/impressionable has lead her to seek someone that reminds her of him. Even weak undertones of it should be acknowledged because you can easily build a case for almost any perspective.

As I said before, Eva is so intensely saturated with innuendos that they become highly superficial and almost pointless. There's almost too many and too much, that none of them are absolutely central to the respective characters.

[RoboFlonne]

Thanks Toni!
I almost forgot! This is an Rewriting of The Case of Misato! And I guess I could call it the Case of Kaji! I've never did a Case of Kaji! Thank You Toni!


Everything I say will be in Bold

Everythingelse is an excerpt from the TV ending!

You have the scene of Misato and Kaji having sex for a whole week and Shinji's standing in the door looking in

MISATO: You wanted to dirty yourself. You should be happy to show this side of yourself to Shinji, shouldn't you?

MISATO: No! No, no!

MISATO: Are you sure? Or is it perhaps your father that you'd like to show this to?

I really don't think this means, "Did you want to Sleep with your Dad?"

MISATO: NO!

MISATO: Wasn't it really peace of mind that you were seeking in Kaji's bed?

MISATO: NO!!

MISATO: You wanted peace of mind and warmth from Kaji, then?

Lots of denial. Don't worry, we'll get the answer soon

MISATO: NO!!

MISATO: You wanted to find your father in Kaji's embrace, didn't you!

MISATO: IT'S NOT TRUE!!!

MISATO: But it is true. In Kaji, I'd found my father reborn. And so I fled from him; I was so afraid. He was so much like my father. But at the same time, I was also very happy. I was never happier! That was such a wonderful time... That's why I hated it. That's why I left. ...That's why I ran away.

This is the Answer! Misato found Kaji to be her father reborn and embraced him. Kaji was someone she could depend on.
Like the way Kaji was able to give Misato the Pill with the Info on the MP EVA's and Selee's plans that Misato needed even though Kaji died.

If you look at the way Kaji died... In many ways he saved Misato so that she could live. Misato would have been executed like Kaji if they knew that she knew that Kaji was a spy for Selee. Remember the time when they almost locked up Misato for being Kaji's friend? If Kaji stayed around and didn't die, Selee would probably have done something to Misato.

Kaji died the same way that her father died and she could depend on Kaji helping her even if he died.


KAJI: So. No reason was required to begin our love, but you needed a reason for ending it.

MISATO: Yes. You were so kind, Kaji... You were so kind to disgrace me... To dirty me... to deflower me...

KAJI: Just because you hate yourself is no reason to injure yourself further. Punishing yourself is simply a cheat, to make you feel better for a little while. Don't do this to yourself.

MISATO: And now you'll tell me to take care of myself?!

MISATO: Men always do that. They'll escape to their jobs... their own world... and leave me behind. They always leave me behind!

Kaji leaves that phone message to Misato with the message that if she hears this, then he's probably dead and if he could do it ever again he would have done it differently.

Like Misato's Dad, Kaji just died for Misato's sake and told her to take care of herself.

That really hurt me when Kaji died... Imagine what it was to Misato when she found out!!

Y.MISATO: Always. Just like our father did.


As you can see, Misato found a dependable person who truly loved Misato and died for her, just like her father.


MISATO: They always escape from the harsh reality. Harsh reality... I am his harsh reality. ...Of course, I have a problem.

Misato and many of the characters in Evangelion were abandoned by their parents. They want to be reunited with them. Shinji wants to be reunited with Yui and thus pilots Eva-01. Rei wants to be reunited with Yui and thus have meaning to her life. Asuka wants her mother's approval and finds her mother in her dying last moments in the fight against the MP Eva's.

I guess one last comment!

Misato wanted to have someone to take care of her like her father. It's a coincidence that Lovers have sex in addition of dying and taking care of each other.

I'm very impressed with Toni remembering this segment!! You're amazing!

I disagree with Misato wanting to have sex with her father and instead was looking for someone to love her.

And I love the way how Anno protrays Kaji sacrificing himself so that Misato would live!

Ok everyone who isn't dozing off should be!

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

I don't mean literally. I don't think she'd want to actually sleep with her dad. That's sick. But she's sleeping with her father's replacement. That's another freudian concept: a daughter will want to marry her father and a son will want to marry his mother. Again, not literally. Figuratively. We're talking about symbolism here. You seek a partner who is similar to your parent. I think the elektra reference works for Misato based on exactly the proof you provided.

[RoboFlonne]

Yay! We agree! I think the Electra Complex is really cool now!

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

I think the Electra Complex is really cool now!

Sorry, that cracked me up.

[JWR]

To me it's a perfect example of the theory put forth by the Schrodinger's cat scenario. -JWR-

Schrodinger was a genius! I Absolutely love him! I'll have to look into the cat scenario... Thanks for bringing that up. I love the way that I always learn something new when we talk about evangelion ! ~_~ It's really amazing!

In Schrodinger's theory , The cat inside the box exists in both the state of being alive as well as dead and will do so until it is observed.

In Eva episodes 25 & 26 as well the movies , the universe was in flux during Instrumentality till Shinji chose it's form and path. Many paths were open to him including the one shown that was expanded upon in the manga Angelic Days.

This ending concept was done much better and less confusing in Rahxephon (Especially the movie version) and Yumeria.

[RoboFlonne]

Someone elses reality may not be the same as mine.

Shinji's reality is dependent on himself, and my reality is mine.

both exists simultaneously but neither is 100% correct without the other!

Great.... That's the Schrodinger Cat Equation after Anno got a hold of it!

Now, I hope that I'm the live cat. Because I think Shinji was the dead cat.



So basically if you don't think quantum theory is supposed to be in anime, then I guess you would dislike Evangelion.

But I love quantum theory! So it works for me!

[RoboFlonne]

I just remembered!

There are cats in Evangelion!

Anno gave Ritsuko quite a large Cat Collection and Kaji's souvenir for Ritsuko was also a cat token.

Near the ending, Ritsuko's cat dies. I never did quite understand why anno devoted the segment to Ritsuko being on the phone with someone talking about a dead cat!

Now the dead cat phonecall is a little bit more interesting to me!

[GuyvarIII]

The main focus of Evangelion is the Characters Themselves and the religious and psychology references are to make the anime "cool". Anno is not deeply religious and just thought that Crosses and the Sephira would make the anime "cool". I have The Case of Asuka Langeley, The Case of Rei Ayanami, The Case of Asuka's Stepmom, and The Case of Misato, if you want to read them and see why Evangelion is so much deeper in the way it lets you almost know the characters as if you've known them since they were children.

The main focus of Eva is on one character, Shinji.
I think you’re making too much of Rei’s, Asuka’s, and Misato’s characters. They are not separate individuals. They were limited in their depth to being only aspects of Shinji’s relationship with women (in his case, his Mother).
(cliché characters used to represent aspects of Man’s relation to Woman)

surrogate sleaze mom (Misato), sad passive girl (Rei), and self absorbed über bitch (Asuka)

And literary tools to demonstrate the Christ-likeness of Shinji’s loser character, when he, a character I already mentioned that I dislike, is shown as bearer of their sins.

I've already posted on a previous page a paraphrase of The Case of Gendou Ikari... so as you don't think that Gendou is a Psychopathic Wife killer. The Wife was the one with the plan. Yui recruited Gendou to fulfill her dream.

I think Shinji’s relation to his father, Gendou, was too simplified. Gendou was too much of just a “mean guy” and not enough of fleshed out character. Even though he had a lot of screen time, most of the time, he was there embodying Shinji’s feeling towards him. I felt no emotional attachment to him, and he is a sad, miserable character.

Gendo's ultimate goal is to reunite with Yui.

Gendou is corrupted by losing his wife; but, as you mentioned, he’s also loyal and infatuated with her. His reward for being devoted to her is she leaves him for his son, Shinji. Maybe it’s Anno’s Mother fantasy to show up his Dad? I don’t know. But it’s not my fantasy and I don’t like how it was done.

Back to being serious!... Shinji probably wasn't Jesus. Shinji would be much more like Adam or a man fallen from grace. Shinji was how Anno was feeling and definitely Anno wasn't feeling like Jesus.

I disagree.
I think a point was made to demonstrate how the other characters in the anime were able to relate their problems with Shinji’s existence in an attempt to show how he was taking on their sins. Using more grandiose specific Christian imagery, in the movie he’s even crucified. As far as I know, Adam’s never crucified. He’s not the omniscient omnipotent God. He’s a sad pathetic “god as man”, master of his own universe: a world of clichés, badly used Christian Iconography, and psychobabble.

The part Anno focused on was the 3 personalities of the Magi. Naoko who is also Ritsuko's mom had her personality transplanted with the Naoko as a woman, Naoko as a mother, and Naoko as a scientist. I love the way how the Magi "Caspar" or the "Naoko as a woman Magi" rejected Ritsuko's plan of Revenge, and chose Gendo instead of her own daughter.
I believe that's why the Magi System was chosen to be three parts. To flesh out Ritsuko's mommy!

I think Ritsuko even stated that they were her mother, but it’s still using the wrong imagery.
If even "Southern Cross" knew you needed to use the Trinity to demonstrate three persons being one, or three aspects of one person, why doesn’t Eva just use the idea without referencing something else that has completely different connotations?
If it’s individual characteristics of each wise man, what tract or tradition is he referencing? As far as I know in Christianity they exist to show the aspects of Jesus as King, God and Sacrifice in their gifts, and his revelation to the Nations (greater world at large)

Since it’s Ritsuko’s mother, why not reference different titles of Mary?

Also it’s a rehash of the triadic imagery already used in another relationship between people taking place in the anime. The three in one imagery is used to describe Shinji’s relationship with Misato, Rei, and Asuka (that not so subtle, Man’s relationship with Woman).

WelcomeConsumer already expanded on the pop-psychology in the show with the Elektra Complex, and you beautifully supported it by referencing a scene.


Eva is sketchy, unappealing, pessimistic characters and pretentious pseudo-psychology, combined with misused Religious Iconography, to cover-up yet another storyline revolving around a self centered, brat kid. Even if Anno meant it to be that way and thought it was “cool”, I still say that’s bad, it’s hubris. If it was shorter I wouldn’t have minded its shortcomings and it would be an OK diversion for an afternoon. It’s not horrible because it is unique in its method of “Mystic-Christian” story telling combined with “Boy-Harem-Robot-Piloting” Anime. Still, I can’t believe the snobbery that surrounds this title, it isn’t good … except for the ’bot, Eva01 ROCKS!/no1