Finished watching Evangelion.......my head hurts....

[wELCOME cONSUMER]

Eva is sketchy, unappealing, pessimistic characters and pretentious pseudo-psychology, combined with misused Religious Iconography, to cover-up yet another storyline revolving around a self centered, brat kid. Even if Anno meant it to be that way and thought it was “cool”, I still say that’s bad, it’s hubris. If it was shorter I wouldn’t have minded its shortcomings and it would be an OK diversion for an afternoon. It’s not horrible because it is unique in its method of “Mystic-Christian” story telling combined with “Boy-Harem-Robot-Piloting” Anime. Still, I can’t believe the snobbery that surrounds this title, it isn’t good

This, above all else, is why I dislike Eva. I can appreciate some of the characters because honestly, can you compare Gendo to any other treatment of fathers in anime? But Anno's hackery of the references is what bothers me most. It's as meaningful as those references that were littered throughout the Matrix trilogy. Just because something "sounds cool." But a lot of anime suffers from that kind of misuse of language and symbols. Irresponsibly using titles without considering the implications.

I can understand the allure of Eva, but like you say, I don't understand the outright worship. There's not many anime like Eva, but is that because Eva is unique or because anime is trite?

[RoboFlonne]

Wow! I completely missed this post!

The main focus of Evangelion is the Characters Themselves and the religious and psychology references are to make the anime "cool". Anno is not deeply religious and just thought that Crosses and the Sephira would make the anime "cool". I have The Case of Asuka Langeley, The Case of Rei Ayanami, The Case of Asuka's Stepmom, and The Case of Misato, if you want to read them and see why Evangelion is so much deeper in the way it lets you almost know the characters as if you've known them since they were children.

The main focus of Eva is on one character, Shinji.
I think you’re making too much of Rei’s, Asuka’s, and Misato’s characters. They are not separate individuals. They were limited in their depth to being only aspects of Shinji’s relationship with women (in his case, his Mother).
(cliché characters used to represent aspects of Man’s relation to Woman)

Personally I think it's unfair to say that Rei is unoriginal. She's a clone of Lilith and Yui. You see her legs sticking out of lilith... and a thousand clones of her in the lcl tanks. I have seen alot of anime and can not find anything close to Rei.

I also think it's unfair to say that Asuka has no depth. There is so much about her that Anno describes through a third person narrator, which is shinji. I think I know as much about Asuka as any main character in another anime. I'm not adding stuff to Asuka's personality. It's all there in Eva.

Misato maybe less original but her final kiss with Shinji shows more depth and development then 10 anime main characters. She finally understands her dad and why he sacrifices himself for her. She does the same for shinji and saves his life, so that Shinji can hide inside Eva-01. She doesn't know that Shinji will become a god with Eva-01. She just wants him to be in an escape pod. It mirrors what her dad did.

Evangelion gives extreme depth to every character. ! feel free to argue otherwise.

Guyvar

surrogate sleaze mom (Misato), sad passive girl (Rei), and self absorbed über bitch (Asuka)

And literary tools to demonstrate the Christ-likeness of Shinji’s loser character, when he, a character I already mentioned that I dislike, is shown as bearer of their sins.

Shinji isn't a bearer of sins. I've said before that he's just a stupid boy that hasn't grown up. The christian imagery is just to make it look cool.

Guyvar

I've already posted on a previous page a paraphrase of The Case of Gendou Ikari... so as you don't think that Gendou is a Psychopathic Wife killer. The Wife was the one with the plan. Yui recruited Gendou to fulfill her dream.

I think Shinji’s relation to his father, Gendou, was too simplified. Gendou was too much of just a “mean guy” and not enough of fleshed out character. Even though he had a lot of screen time, most of the time, he was there embodying Shinji’s feeling towards him. I felt no emotional attachment to him, and he is a sad, miserable character.

It's true that Gendou doesn't get screentime, but everytime he shows up, his personality shines through. I don't necessarily agree that Gendou would have been a better character if he wasn't mean. He did what he did to save Yui. He blames himself for her death. It may be harder to see at first, but The Case of Gendou Ikari that I wrote should explain it.

Gendo's ultimate goal is to reunite with Yui.

Gendou is corrupted by losing his wife; but, as you mentioned, he’s also loyal and infatuated with her. His reward for being devoted to her is she leaves him for his son, Shinji. Maybe it’s Anno’s Mother fantasy to show up his Dad? I don’t know. But it’s not my fantasy and I don’t like how it was done.

I think Yui is the one who betrays Gendou. We all should have sympathy for him. But as a father, you should love your son more then yourself.

Guyvar

Back to being serious!... Shinji probably wasn't Jesus. Shinji would be much more like Adam or a man fallen from grace. Shinji was how Anno was feeling and definitely Anno wasn't feeling like Jesus.

I disagree.
I think a point was made to demonstrate how the other characters in the anime were able to relate their problems with Shinji’s existence in an attempt to show how he was taking on their sins. Using more grandiose specific Christian imagery, in the movie he’s even crucified. As far as I know, Adam’s never crucified. He’s not the omniscient omnipotent God. He’s a sad pathetic “god as man”, master of his own universe: a world of clichés, badly used Christian Iconography, and psychobabble.

Shinji is no master of his world. The imagery is all for coolness. Shinji is a master of nothing. In the end, not even of Asuka.

Guyvar

The part Anno focused on was the 3 personalities of the Magi. Naoko who is also Ritsuko's mom had her personality transplanted with the Naoko as a woman, Naoko as a mother, and Naoko as a scientist. I love the way how the Magi "Caspar" or the "Naoko as a woman Magi" rejected Ritsuko's plan of Revenge, and chose Gendo instead of her own daughter.
I believe that's why the Magi System was chosen to be three parts. To flesh out Ritsuko's mommy!

I think Ritsuko even stated that they were her mother, but it’s still using the wrong imagery.
If even "Southern Cross" knew you needed to use the Trinity to demonstrate three persons being one, or three aspects of one person, why doesn’t Eva just use the idea without referencing something else that has completely different connotations?
If it’s individual characteristics of each wise man, what tract or tradition is he referencing? As far as I know in Christianity they exist to show the aspects of Jesus as King, God and Sacrifice in their gifts, and his revelation to the Nations (greater world at large)

Since it’s Ritsuko’s mother, why not reference different titles of Mary?

Also it’s a rehash of the triadic imagery already used in another relationship between people taking place in the anime. The three in one imagery is used to describe Shinji’s relationship with Misato, Rei, and Asuka (that not so subtle, Man’s relationship with Woman).

WelcomeConsumer already expanded on the pop-psychology in the show with the Elektra Complex, and you beautifully supported it by referencing a scene.

I don't have problems with the imagery and the well integratedness which makes this anime cool looking, nothing more.

Guyvar

Eva is sketchy, unappealing, pessimistic characters and pretentious pseudo-psychology, combined with misused Religious Iconography, to cover-up yet another storyline revolving around a self centered, brat kid. Even if Anno meant it to be that way and thought it was “cool”, I still say that’s bad, it’s hubris. If it was shorter I wouldn’t have minded its shortcomings and it would be an OK diversion for an afternoon. It’s not horrible because it is unique in its method of “Mystic-Christian” story telling combined with “Boy-Harem-Robot-Piloting” Anime. Still, I can’t believe the snobbery that surrounds this title, it isn’t good … except for the ’bot, Eva01 ROCKS!/no1

I agree that Eva-01 is the best! The funny thing is that this imagery that you hate is the reason why everyone likes it.

[GuyvarIII]

Has this thread been “resurrected” for the Lent/Easter season?

Evangelion gives extreme depth to every character. .. feel free to argue otherwise.

You’ve never seen characters like ‘surrogate sleaze mom,’ ‘sad passive girl,’ and ‘self absorbed über bitch’? I don’t believe you.
Dime Store Paperbacks use these characters because they’re easily, universally understood, not because they’re unique.

Personally I think it's unfair to say that Rei is unoriginal. She's a clone of Lilith and Yui. You see her legs sticking out of lilith... and a thousand clones of her in the lcl tanks. I have seen alot of anime and can not find anything close to Rei.

“…I think it's unfair to say that Rei is unoriginal. She's a clone…” Huh?
Adding sci-fi clichés like cloning doesn’t add much depth. Cloning is an event that happens in the plot but it doesn’t add to her character. Her entire personality is just sad passive girl; the sleazy Japanese salary-man’s dream girl/woman. She has nowhere near the personality of previous Anime clones like Mamo (Lupin III: Mystery of Mamo), the resurrected parents in Casshan, or even the clones from Southern Cross. The tank of Reis was very reminiscent of the room of cloned body parts in Southern Cross. I guess Eva01 got all of Yui’s personality.

I also think it's unfair to say that Asuka has no depth. There is so much about her that Anno describes through a third person narrator, which is shinji. I think I know as much about Asuka as any main character in another anime. I'm not adding stuff to Asuka's personality. It's all there in Eva.

I don’t think you can create an in-depth character with one flashback. Every character in Eva is known through Shinji because Shinji is the only real character. Just as you supported WC’s assertion of the Electra complex with your excerpted dialogue, you are supporting my critique here. You never know Asuka as a person, only as Shinji’s impressions; banal abstract thoughts like: “why is she so mean to me? why is she so “hot”, etc.?” These help to develop Shinji into a more believable teen boy but do nothing for Asuka.

Misato maybe less original but her final kiss with Shinji shows more depth and development then 10 anime main characters. She finally understands her dad and why he sacrifices himself for her. She does the same for shinji and saves his life, so that Shinji can hide inside Eva-01.

The scene foreshadows the end and helps in storytelling but even you can’t refer to her as an original character.

I don’t understand your “Anime Main Character Scale,” (it’s like L’s percentage scale from Death Note. I sense “fuzzy numbers.”) but I think I agree with it. By agreeing, I’m stating that most Anime have underdeveloped cliché characters that aren’t worth mentioning. In almost two decades of Anime viewing I haven’t seen one original character. For that we’d need to go back to Epic of Gilgamesh. I don’t like any Anime because of its original characters. At best an Anime can have an interesting take on and/or a more or less developed cliché character. Eva has underdeveloped cliché characters and manages to leech all the fun out of them by having them either mean or depressed.

It's true that Gendou doesn't get screentime, but everytime he shows up, his personality shines through. I don't necessarily agree that Gendou would have been a better character if he wasn't mean.

His personality does come through: he’s mean. I don’t think he shouldn’t be mean. I just think he shouldn’t be mean all the time. That’s not like a person. He’s basically a one-note character.

I think Yui is the one who betrays Gendou. We all should have sympathy for him.

I agree.
Intellectually I felt I should feel sorry for him after the show ended; but I didn’t feel any sympathy for him while I watched the show. I think his character development isn’t handled well.

Shinji isn't a bearer of sins. I've said before that he's just a stupid boy that hasn't grown up. The christian imagery is just to make it look cool.

The fact that Shinji is put in the role of protector and pilots Eva01 puts him in a Christ-like role from the very beginning. I think most of the Christian imagery is worthless, but I thought it worked in reinforcing the main idea in this case.

She (Misato) doesn't know that Shinji will become a god with Eva-01. She just wants him to be in an escape pod. It mirrors what her dad did.

Shinji doesn’t know he’s god either. In the end he realizes himself and he’s the center of his own existence surrounded by all the other characters. If this was Christianity he would be God. Eva isn’t Christianity (despite all the iconography), so he’s not God he’s something like ‘Man-god’ or as previously stated:

He’s not the omniscient omnipotent God. He’s a sad pathetic “god as man”, master of his own universe: a world of clichés, badly used Christian Iconography, and psychobabble.

Shinji is no master of his world. The imagery is all for coolness. Shinji is a master of nothing. In the end, not even of Asuka.

Shinji is the center of everything. He wants to be dominated by Asuka(Mommy) because in the show he never really grows up. I don’t like Shinji because as I mentioned earlier:

…he’s a whining, complaining, self-loathing loser. As the show went on I never thought he really changed. It just endlessly showed how he felt that his father was mean and that his mother left him. Even though all the women come to the conclusion that they want Shinji, he’s a brat with no redeeming attributes and I didn’t think his past excused his childish self-absorbed behavior. The show even states that it doesn’t excuse his behavior, but then it backtracks and makes more excuses for it.

These are also the attributes that make him the main focus and the most unique character in the show; but they’re unappealing.

As you said:

… he's just a stupid boy that hasn't grown up.

That is why I don’t like Eva.
It’s also the reason why I don’t understand why people who like Eva attack those who don’t like it and accuse them of not understanding Evangelion. All the psychobabble in Eva can’t cover up this character. This “fairly unique in Anime”, weak, sad, self-loathing loser is the core of Neon Genesis Evangelion and nothing can change that.

I don't have problems with the imagery and the well integratedness which makes this anime cool looking, nothing more.

I do, it’s used wrongly. It’s stuck in the story but most of it didn’t make any sense. I can’t describe it as being “well integrated.” It didn’t work in the story because, like someone speaking phonetically in a foreign language, they didn’t know what they were saying ; so most of it shouldn’t be in the story.

To me the Christian mumbo-jumbo seemed to be a pointless reference to something that’s antithetical to Eva’s final conclusion. All it did was reinforce the idea that Japanese Animators think Christianity is the Cult of Cthulhu.

I agree that Eva-01 is the best! The funny thing is that this imagery that you hate is the reason why everyone likes it.

I think you mean; you think this is why the fans of Eva like it. I didn’t start this thread. Is Eva: Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon, Pokemon, Yu-gi-oh!, or Inu Yasha?
Even these vastly more popular titles have those who don’t like them.

Eva01 combined Giant Anime ‘Bots and Monsters and did a great job of it. My favorite part in the entire Anime was when Eva01 started to eat the opposing Angel.

I don’t like its misuse of Christian symbolism, but the reason why I don’t like Eva is because I don’t like Shinji.

[RoboFlonne]

I don't like shinji either! That's something we agree on! Even Anno agrees. Anno hates shinji...

The scene foreshadows the end and helps in storytelling but even you can’t refer to her as an original character.-guyver-

Misato's kiss does more then foreshadowing, like I said it does it indirectly, but it develops misato's character in a matter of seconds. She passes on her cross to shinji just as her dad did. For the entire show misato is grieving over her father or kaji. Now she's grown up, unlike shinji.

You can't really argue that an anime is lame because of unoriginal characters. If you really want to any anime character can be compared with ancient literature for a comparable character.

that type of arguement that there were characters before as a bitchy person... really doesn't say much. We can say that eve was pushy with her telling adam to eat apple.