Fan cels of Rilezu cels

Gonzai · Post by **Gonzai** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:10 pm

Well, I just have to jump in here for a couple of reasons.

First off, Stephen is absolutely correct when he states that
Madoka's cel quality is really good. I have only bought one
series from Madoka (Basilisk), and the quality was exceptional.
As I said in the past, hats off to Madoka for getting it right.

However, that being said, I have to say, some of the Rilezu cels
I have seen in others gallerys are not that high quality. For one
thing, the colors are off. It is so hard to justify spending that
kind of money on something, when the colors are all wrong.

So then, let me ask you this Stephen, "If you were to
complete someone's cel, and email them that it was complete
and ask for final payment, would you re-do the entire cel if
the customer said the coloring was off and demanded it be
re-done??"

The thing is, I have had people tell me they are scared to say
anything to the dealers when they find out the coloring on their
cel is all wrong, for fear of pissing off the dealer. I believe
someone once said they said something, and were turned down. >_<

I understand where you are coming from with not posting larger
images of your Rilezu cels because you don't want them copied,
however, I would rather pay Dina $50 to $100 bucks to do a fan
cel for me (hugs Dina), then $350-$500 for a poor quality Rilezu
cel just to say I have an official studio cel. Do you see what I am
saying?

Post by **Kaona** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:50 pm

Stephen - your concerns lead back to the fact studio and cel brokers need to improve their product quality (yours might be the exception) and lower the outrageously overinflated greedy prices of their "official" rilezu. Asking $600 for something that will be worth $100 in a year isn't exactly an investment, so why bother? If rilezu were more affordable folks wouldn't have to go out and have them made. Lowering the quality of your images or stamping them on your site won't prevent someone from finding a high quality image from a screen cap, and only annoys your potential customers, the ones who want your rilezu.

You can warn and threaten an individual to your heart's content, but really, would you (and the studios) spend money on airfare, time in small claims court, and costs for food and lodging all in order to recover a couple hundred bucks from the poor soul who either purchased or produced a fan cel? The most you are likely recover is the fan cel itself - one that is probably far nicer than the rilezu. These cels are not being mass produced in the US, so you need not fret about the entire industry being overrun by a society of underground rilezu painters anytime in the near future.

Sparta101 - Have I got the rilezu of your dreams or what? Just to your left. Okay, so it isn't Goku, it's Kon, but it was professionally done by a 5 year old! I'll give you a good price if you promise not to turn her in to Studio Pierrot! You know how upset she gets when threatened with legal action!

EternityOfPain · Post by **EternityOfPain** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:42 pm

AnimeMuseum wrote:
EternityOfPain wrote: *Licensed* sounds good in a textbook, but reality is quite different. I didn't know that they pay for each cel made granted that is something, but at the same token just because they "pay" for the right to produce them doesn't mean that other individuals should stop making fancels because of such claim
Okay if you are so certain here why don't you get some Disney fancels of the Disney sericel done, make a website, put them on ebay and see far your *but reality is quite different* gets you.

You do realize you already responded to this quote i said before? If you scroll up you will see.

I never stated I was going to buy fancels and sell them on ebay. I am completely baffeled at how you percieve what I write. Perhaps you should re-read a few times. Thats my suggestion.

RoboFlonne · Post by **RoboFlonne** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:10 pm

This is kinda like the fansub community not fansubbing after a series having been licensed...

Should fancels stop being made after it's been licensed?

Sparta101 · Post by **Sparta101** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:40 am

Sparta101 - Have I got the rilezu of your dreams or what? Just to your left. Okay, so it isn't Goku, it's Kon, but it was professionally done by a 5 year old! I'll give you a good price if you promise not to turn her in to Studio Pierrot! You know how upset she gets when threatened with legal action!

lol

[/i]

awajikiwi · Post by **awajikiwi** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:10 am

Kaona wrote:Stephen - your concerns lead back to the fact studio and cel brokers need to improve their product quality (yours might be the exception) and lower the outrageously overinflated greedy prices of their "official" rilezu. Asking $600 for something that will be worth $100 in a year isn't exactly an investment, so why bother? If rilezu were more affordable folks wouldn't have to go out and have them made. Lowering the quality of your images or stamping them on your site won't prevent someone from finding a high quality image from a screen cap, and only annoys your potential customers, the ones who want your rilezu.

You can warn and threaten an individual to your heart's content, but really, would you (and the studios) spend money on airfare, time in small claims court, and costs for food and lodging all in order to recover a couple hundred bucks from the poor soul who either purchased or produced a fan cel? The most you are likely recover is the fan cel itself - one that is probably far nicer than the rilezu. These cels are not being mass produced in the US, so you need not fret about the entire industry being overrun by a society of underground rilezu painters anytime in the near future.

Sparta101 - Have I got the rilezu of your dreams or what? Just to your left. Okay, so it isn't Goku, it's Kon, but it was professionally done by a 5 year old! I'll give you a good price if you promise not to turn her in to Studio Pierrot! You know how upset she gets when threatened with legal action!

$600 dollars ? Some are that high but most are between the $210.00 to $360.00 ! and I have already stated why rilezu cels cannot be cheaper.

claims court LOL ! It's no small claims court case. Copyright infringement is big serious crime in the U.S!

http://www.fbi.gov/ipr/

Granted the above link is centered around mainly movie/game industries, but I am sure if you tried sell copies of Disney sericel this would be the kind of trouble you would be looking at.

More on copyright in Japan http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/clj/clj.html and this is internationally protected under the Berne Convention.

As for the images. Trace lines on rilezu cels and cels and visible, making it easy to copy.

Mass produced or not, the fact of the matter is the only ones who should be producing Cels of any kind are the companies who have purchased the rights to do so.

*spelling

otakusin · Post by **otakusin** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:24 am

I know I am jumping into a fiery pit here but I have to agree with Stephen. I have always seen Rilezu cels on equal terms as the Disney Sericels released. If you had one made/commissioned and they found out about it, they most definitely would spend and waste the money to make their point. For companies its not about the money but the point being made.

I know I have a fan cel so coming from me this may sound hypocritical but even so it's just the truth that fan cels, art and subbing of copyrighted images/shows are illegal. Does it stop people from doing it... no, can they stop it... probably not, will they try... yes because there's is no chance of stopping the theft if someone does not at least try.

Concerning the complaints about Rilezu cels pricing and quality, I actually agree with that part (excluding Basilisk) but even so it still does not make it legal, when point made is used defending the copying it only becomes an excuse used to justify.

Post by **JWR** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:33 am

While the copyright laws may apply to images that may or may not be used in the creation of a "fan cel" I seriously think that any problems being created are not from the artist who makes an occational cel for themselves or as a commission. It seems to me that there is organized groups (I suspect a lot of ex studio artists let go when CG replaced cels in production) making large amounts of cels for profit and selling them on YJ and Ebay.
Rilezu cels in there self (at least those I have purchased from Madoka) are more desirable than a fan cel but early series suffered from lack of imagimation of those picking which images to produce leading a lot of unsold product. To counter this lately there has been pre-orders for announced series in which those interested can submit an order for a perticular scene of an upcomming show. This is all and good except these series being offered are ones not yet licenced and avalible outside of Japan. So in order to for those outside of Japan to preorder Rilezu they must rely on screencaps from "Fan Sub" copies which in it's self is most likely more of a potentional harm to the Anime Industry than any fan cel being produced.
So it's kind of a catch 22. Being hurt by one Illegal activity (fan cels) yet profiting from another (fan subs).

graymouser · Post by **graymouser** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:05 pm

Overall I have to agree with Stephen. I agree with what others have said about the quality issues, they are certainly real and I find it very disappointing. It is also true that the cost will push many people out of the market for rilezus (with the cost of buying the license, there probably is not a lot that can be done about it - except hope that the rilezu is resold later at a cheaper price). Even so, making and selling fan cels is a violation of copyright law. Neither the quality nor the cost of the Rilezu vs fan cels is relevant to the legality issue.

Stephen is correct in that if fan cels of American copyrighted images were sold openly, the copyright holders would go after them. I know this from personal experience. I once bid on a fan cel of an American comic book image on ebay. The copyright holder contacted both the artist and myself. The artist received a cease and desist order and I was informed that I was bidding on a stolen image. I also know someone whose job it is to go after internet crime (usually stalkers, but copyright infringement is included when it is encountered). In the US, copyright violation is taken very seriously. It is probably more difficult for the Japanese companies to do the same thing to US violators, but that doesn't mean they enjoy it or they have to make it easy. Shrinking down the images or adding watermarks is a very moderate response.

To counter this lately there has been pre-orders for announced series in which those interested can submit an order for a perticular scene of an upcomming show. This is all and good except these series being offered are ones not yet licenced and avalible outside of Japan. So in order to for those outside of Japan to preorder Rilezu they must rely on screencaps from "Fan Sub" copies which in it's self is most likely more of a potentional harm to the Anime Industry than any fan cel being produced.
So it's kind of a catch 22. Being hurt by one Illegal activity (fan cels) yet profiting from another (fan subs).

Thanks JWR. I was thinking the same thing as I read this thread. I do not like having to choose from a limited set of images for rilezu. On the other hand, since I don't buy fan subs, I am at a huge disadvantage in buying rilezus where screen caps are submitted for orders. I end up waiting until the anime is released in the US. By the time I can provide screencaps, I have to get in line behind everyone who submitted fan sub screencaps. It got worse when I had to replace my CD drive. The new programming does not allow screencaps to be taken from the licensed materials. Now I can not provide screencaps at all. Its either the pre-chosen images of shows I haven't seen yet ( because many of them are not licensed in the US) , waiting until many of the images are already taken (but I've seen the show and can recognize the scene/character and judge the quality) or nothing (because I can't do a screencap). As someone who wants to respect the copyright holders, I am being pushed out of a good portion of the rilezu market.

There needs to be more coordination between the license holders. Right now, the actions of one license holder encourages the violation of the rights of another license holder. Even though its illegal, I'm not surprised that many people choose to violate both.

RoboFlonne · Post by **RoboFlonne** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:10 pm

I personally think that Relizu studio's should somehow mark their relizu's with a tamper-proof seal. or something to certify authenticity.

Other collectible markets do that.

ReiTheJelly · Post by **ReiTheJelly** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:16 pm

RoboFlonne wrote:I personally think that Relizu studio's should somehow mark their relizu's with a tamper-proof seal. or something to certify authenticity.

Other collectible markets do that.

This issue has already been addressed (yesterday).

AnimeMuseum wrote:Rilezu cels have a shousha seal (a small square sticker) on them.

Kagejin · Post by **Kagejin** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:31 pm

Hey Stephen,

I replied to your email. Please let me know if you don't get it. My email server isn't the most reliable out there. PM me if you want also.

RoboFlonne · Post by **RoboFlonne** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:24 pm

::Ahem... Today Roboflonne will talk about Business perspective... which she knows absolutely nothing about... so please bear with her...::

I think... There are two things that Relizu companies need to concentrate on to succeed:

1. Concentrate on Authenticity: In any collectible market... you must make it impossible or incredibly hard to reproduce; in order to discourage fakes being made. Solutions are many and I just thought up a few..... (a. A very visible tamper-proof and very hard to duplicate serial number and stamp of authenticity. The serial number can be on a database that can be verified for authenticity. b. Use special materials that are higher quality then what fan cels are made from. Special acid proof Paints, acetate, backgrounds.... etc. That can distinguish it from fan cels.)

2. Concentrate on Quality: The quality of the Relizu's must be better then the fan cels... If there isn't a visible reason to buy a relizu... then why bother?

For Example:

If the quality of a "fake rolex" is better or equal to a "real rolex" , then no one will buy a real rolex .

Similarly if the quality of a "fan cel" is better or equal to a "relizu cel", then no one will buy a "relizu cel".

The truth is that legal action won't get rid of the fake rolexes... Fake rolexes flourish just like fan cels do and almost everyone I know has gotten one as a gift like I've gotten fan cels as gifts...

If you want to help the relizu companies tell them to focus AUTHENTICITY and QUALITY...

Stephen, I've known you for many years and have bought much from you... Please don't continue to argue on this subject since it won't help. What you can do is tell the relizu companies how to succeed.

RoboFlonne · Post by **RoboFlonne** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:12 pm

ReiTheJelly wrote:
RoboFlonne wrote:I personally think that Relizu studio's should somehow mark their relizu's with a tamper-proof seal. or something to certify authenticity.

Other collectible markets do that.
This issue has already been addressed (yesterday).

AnimeMuseum wrote:Rilezu cels have a shousha seal (a small square sticker) on them.

The little shousha stickers can be mass produced... Just give it to someone an I can have a billion printed for 5 cents each.

awajikiwi · Post by **awajikiwi** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:08 pm

RoboFlonne wrote:::Ahem... Today Roboflonne will talk about Business perspective... which she knows absolutely nothing about... so please bear with her...::

I think... There are two things that Relizu companies need to concentrate on to succeed:

1. Concentrate on Authenticity: In any collectible market... you must make it impossible or incredibly hard to reproduce; in order to discourage fakes being made. Solutions are many and I just thought up a few..... (a. A very visible tamper-proof and very hard to duplicate serial number and stamp of authenticity. The serial number can be on a database that can be verified for authenticity. b. Use special materials that are higher quality then what fan cels are made from. Special acid proof Paints, acetate, backgrounds.... etc. That can distinguish it from fan cels.)

2. Concentrate on Quality: The quality of the Relizu's must be better then the fan cels... If there isn't a visible reason to buy a relizu... then why bother?

For Example:

If the quality of a "fake rolex" is better or equal to a "real rolex" , then no one will buy a real rolex .

Similarly if the quality of a "fan cel" is better or equal to a "relizu cel", then no one will buy a "relizu cel".

The truth is that legal action won't get rid of the fake rolexes... Fake rolexes flourish just like fan cels do and almost everyone I know has gotten one as a gift like I've gotten fan cels as gifts...

If you want to help the relizu companies tell them to focus AUTHENTICITY and QUALITY...

Stephen, I've known you for many years and have bought much from you... Please don't continue to argue on this subject since it won't help. What you can do is tell the relizu companies how to succeed.

Sorry there is nothing we can do to make a product tamper-proof.

Madoka does concrete on quality, Always has always will.