Moop wrote:
See, there's where my opinion seems to differ from most. I have never thought that Sasuke was even vaguely evil. I just don't see it.
| I also do not believe Sasuke is truly evil. He's an emotional train wreck from people messing with him, and has made some bad decisions, but I don't think he's a bad guy. I hope to see him reconcile with Naruto, but I'm not holding my breath. ^_^ |
| i don't really see him as evil either... just dumb choice making/easily manipulated/emotional trainwreck/etc. i do hope he is just faking it so he can kill tobi... but given his past vengence will be mine attitude i'm not holding my breath for the faking it thing. :/ i hope he reconciles with naruto/sakura and lives on. though again, i wouldn't be overly surprised if he died trying to save naruto. |
Never!Moop wrote:
Good heavens, are you suggesting that Sasuke may do something irrational, impulsive and stupid in his quest for vengeance??
| From the very start of this series, Sasuke has set himself a goal, rarely pausing from it, and ruthlessly excising from his life anything and everyone that kept him from this goal. Nothing irrational here! His current situation is the product of a clearly rational, if overly focused mind. |
Again, the very antithesis of this character. He has spent years forming himself into the person he is today. From his decision (his will as you previously put it) to leave those whom he saw as “holding him back”; to the many years spent with the most powerful person he knew, Konoha’s enemy, learning just what he wished (and then killing him off and carrying on with a carefully handpicked team of flunkys); this character could only be described as: calculating. Now if we were talking about Naruto….  |
Konoha’s genius? Vindictive, selfish, at times impatient and envious, but stupid? I think not! Just because it looks like he may have misread the situation vis-à-vis his brother and his clan doesn’t mean he was stupid. After all, an even greater Uchiha genius worked hard to make it appear that way  . |
| really turns his hate on Konoha, I don’t think these are the adjectives that would apply. |
This would totally negate his brother’s wishes, and render his life and death, pointless  , which could be seen as “irresponsible”. But, of course, it would fulfill the wishes of his father and the other murdered, rebellious Uchihas, so it could be Sasuke’s choice… You messed with me, you DIE! Uchiha Űber Alles!(But, hopefully, Naruto will stop him, and make him see the error of this path  … not lethally, though!  ) |
| he could be playing Tobi for a fool. That would be a remarkably mature point of view for Sasuke (now “immature” is an adjective this character does connote to me), to think of Konoha’s position, the need to put other’s lives and welfare ahead of his own or his clan's… |
| Sasuke's intense jealousy of Naruto and his attempts to sabotage their friendship at every turn were pretty irrational. I think it's largely due to the fact that their interactions (and Sasuke's feelings of inferiority) were too similar to Sasuke's feeling toward pre-massacre Itachi for comfort. Sasuke always wanted Naruto's attention (or even better, his admiration); previously he got it by besting Naruto or being antagonistic. Once Naruto was on par with or better than Sasuke, Sasuke was the one (once again) who felt looked down upon, left behind, and inferior. He couldn't handle it. So destroyed the most positive relationship in his life trying to prove himself. Basically, he cut off his nose to spite his face. Only after that massive falling out with Naruto did Sasuke decide to put his old plans back into place. I mean, he said so himself. |
| Saving Naruto from apparent death in total contraction to his life plan was pretty impulsive. So was deciding not kill Naruto for MS as he trudged away in the rain (I actually don't think he gave up his plans to kill Naruto for power until that moment; when Naruto was lying on the ground, I just don't think he could bring himself to.) I think he simply rationalized it by saying, "Brother, I won't do what you tell me." Well, why not? He certainly was carrying out every other instruction Itachi had given him. Sasuke can swing wildly from brutally attacking Naruto and threatening him with death to fondly remembering their time on the Naruto bridge. He can decide in a short period of time to destroy Konoha, based on the testimony of a man he doesn't know and has every reason to distrust. I do agree Sasuke can be very calculating once he decides to do something (or not do something), but the process by which he makes those decisions is fundamentally driven by emotion and made in the heat of the moment. And he can change his mind just as quickly. |
| Though I do think Sasuke is only a "genius" in terms of ninja ability, I wouldn't call him stupid. I mean, the choices he's made could be described that way, but I think he's better described as emotionally unstable and easily manipulated (if you know which buttons to push, that is). |
Anime is calling me to go watch. 
See now, I see that as envy and not irrationality.naturalgrace wrote:I'd give him two out of three for irrational, impulsive and stupid.
Irrational:
Sasuke's intense jealousy of Naruto and his attempts to sabotage their friendship at every turn were pretty irrational. I think it's largely due to the fact that their interactions (and Sasuke's feelings of inferiority) were too similar to Sasuke's feeling toward pre-massacre Itachi for comfort. Sasuke always wanted Naruto's attention (or even better, his admiration); previously he got it by besting Naruto or being antagonistic. Once Naruto was on par with or better than Sasuke, Sasuke was the one (once again) who felt looked down upon, left behind, and inferior. He couldn't handle it. So destroyed the most positive relationship in his life trying to prove himself. Basically, he cut off his nose to spite his face.
Only after that massive falling out with Naruto did Sasuke decide to put his old plans back into place. I mean, he said so himself.
| Inferiority is a feeling previously associated by Sasuke, only in comparison to Itachi. And in that case as well, it was always accompanied by: Envy. When Sasuke has to acknowledge Naruto, whom he'd always thought of as inferior, as equal to or even better than him, he blames his current life in Konoha, and seeks to remedy this. Not an irrational response. This course of action began during his beating by Itachi, and is caused by his failure to see any difference in his power against Itachi, even with Chidori. Then he picks a fight with Naruto, whom he is (not quite) sure he still can best... The fight at the hospital, where Naruto is shown to have grown so much more that he...is just the nail in the coffin. Naruto is upset and angry, but I think the events that followed show that their relationship was certainly not destroyed. And the speed with which Sasuke rushed to confront Itachi, when he was accidently told where he was, clearly shows that his original plan of vengeance was still very much in place. http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/000000 ... 146/11.jpg |
I agree that Sasuke acted impulsivelynaturalgrace wrote:
Saving Naruto from apparent death in total contraction to his life plan was pretty impulsive. So was deciding not kill Naruto for MS as he trudged away in the rain (I actually don't think he gave up his plans to kill Naruto for power until that moment; when Naruto was lying on the ground, I just don't think he could bring himself to.) I think he simply rationalized it by saying, "Brother, I won't do what you tell me." Well, why not? He certainly was carrying out every other instruction Itachi had given him.
Sasuke can swing wildly from brutally attacking Naruto and threatening him with death to fondly remembering their time on the Naruto bridge. He can decide in a short period of time to destroy Konoha, based on the testimony of a man he doesn't know and has every reason to distrust. I do agree Sasuke can be very calculating once he decides to do something (or not do something), but the process by which he makes those decisions is fundamentally driven by emotion and made in the heat of the moment. And he can change his mind just as quickly.
way back in the fight with Haku (And, boy was he surprised at his out of character behavior: http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/000000 ... o27-12.jpg , http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/000000 ... o27-14.jpg , http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/000000 ... o27-15.jpg ) But I don't see it in the Valley of the End fight with Naruto. He didn't plan to, or want to fight with him, Naruto pursued him. And I'm sure we all agree that Sasuke is very emotional  , but (unfortunately  ) he sticks with the choices he makes. Whether to avenge his clan, take the cursed power of Orochimaru, leave his friends behind, or... |
| Destroy Konoha? |
)| http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/000000 ... 385/03.jpg http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/000000 ... 385/04.jpg The question is... Does he see this third person (i.e., Tobi) still as responsible for killing his clan ...or does he now blame Konoha!?! |
duotrouble wrote:Is Sasuke irrational, impulsive and stupid? No. No. And no.
irmgaard wrote:Never!
| Er...whadda, whadda, what? And never? To begin with, I didn't say that any of those adjectives describes his fundamental nature.  I implied that he has occasionally acted irrationally, impulsively or stupidly in the past - which he has - and that it's not out of the question that he will do so again. On the other hand, I don't believe that he is being completely manipulated by Madara...but of course the truth of that remains to be seen (and has the potential, in fact, to prove his redemption). For the record: (and as it has already been mentioned once), I believe that it was impulsive for him to risk all by leaping in to save Naruto from Haku. I believe that it was stupid of him to give so little consideration to Kakashi's lecture, based completely on experience, that he received while tied to a tree - not in the low IQ sense of the word, but in an 'if everyone else can see it, why can't you' respect. In this particular instance, he allowed his need for vengeance to short circuit his intellect. And...I believe that it was irrational for him to follow the siren call of an extraordinarily powerful creature who wanted to take up permanent residence in his body. He was still a fairly inexperienced little boy when he went, with a lot of devastating losses to his credit. The ends do not, in fact, justify the means; had the student failed to surpass the teacher within a limited amount of time, once again he would have sacrificed his life's goal. (And I also feel compelled to point out that even having apparently done so, it was actually Itachi who had to free him from Orochimaru's grasp.) So yes, you'd have to work pretty hard to convince me that everything he's done has been rational, well planned and brilliant. It's been fun watching people leap in to defend him, though.  |
Sorry for being dense, but what exactly do you mean by 'the evil trying to manipulate him'?duotrouble wrote:It's just the evil trying to manipulate him that must be banished.
My mistake.Moop wrote:duotrouble wrote:Is Sasuke irrational, impulsive and stupid? No. No. And no.irmgaard wrote:Never!
Er...whadda, whadda, what? And never?
To begin with, I didn't say that any of those adjectives describes his fundamental nature.
| I did think you were implying just that through sarcasm. That these were words commonly thought of to describe Sasuke's nature. There are instances when any character can act out of the norm. But we would not use words describing those times to describe that character, and that is what I meant when I said I never think of those words as describing Sasuke. |
One of my favorite scenesMoop wrote:
For the record: (and as it has already been mentioned once), I believe that it was impulsive for him to risk all by leaping in to save Naruto from Haku.
I believe that it was stupid of him to give so little consideration to Kakashi's lecture, based completely on experience, that he received while tied to a tree - not in the low IQ sense of the word, but in an 'if everyone else can see it, why can't you' respect. In this particular instance, he allowed his need for vengeance to short circuit his intellect.
! Because, despite the exotic "Ninja" setting of Naruto, this is a reproduction of the quaintly familiar adult lecture, "Now, Son, When I was a boy I had just the same thing happen to me...." that all adolescents automatically tune right out!  All teens would be "stupid" if ignoring this type of "voice of experience" talk indicated that! |
No one elseMoop wrote:
And...I believe that it was irrational for him to follow the siren call of an extraordinarily powerful creature who wanted to take up permanent residence in his body. He was still a fairly inexperienced little boy when he went, with a lot of devastating losses to his credit. The ends do not, in fact, justify the means; had the student failed to surpass the teacher within a limited amount of time, once again he would have sacrificed his life's goal. (And I also feel compelled to point out that even having apparently done so, it was actually Itachi who had to free him from Orochimaru's grasp.)
| could give him the power he sought, it was a gamble, but one he was willing to take. I don't see that as irrational, reckless maybe? And I noted in a previous thread that it looked to me like the whole point of the fight was to free Sasuke from the curse. It didn't seem like he was too bothered by it, but I bet he's glad it's gone... |
Moop wrote:
So yes, you'd have to work pretty hard to convince me that everything he's done has been rational, well planned and brilliant.
| I do think he's been rational, and has planned out what he has done |
| "not stupid" and brilliant |
Oh, I definitely agree that's a motivating factor. The question is, is it rational envy your best friend (who loves, adores and protects you) to the point that youirmgaard wrote: See now, I see that as envy and not irrationality.
| are willing to commit serious acts of violence against them, and are willing to attempt to sever a largely positive relationship? |
See, I actually think it began before that, whenirmgaard wrote:This course of action began
during his beating by Itachi, and is caused by his failure to see any difference in his power against Itachi, even with Chidori.
| Naruto saved everyone from Gaara and Sasuke was powerless to do anything. |
| Sasuke is jealous of Sakura. I think he believes Naruto cares more about her than he does Sasuke. It starts out with Sasuke defending Naruto and playing up his virtues to Sakura. He chides her for not noticing Naruto's true strength before (which he has; I personally don't think he's referencing brute force, here). Then, oddly, when Sakura looks at Naruto with admiration, Sasuke is not pleased. I think he's threatened by it. At this point, I think Sasuke believes he has Naruto's attention monopolized only because Sakura doesn't give him the time of day. If Sakura starts fixating on Naruto the way she previously did to Sasuke, he's going to be the odd man out. I also think Sasuke's hurt, since he attributes Naruto's burst of power to his strong desire to protect Sakura. Remember, he doesn't know about Kyuubi at this point. This is his inferiority complex talking: of course Naruto wanted to save Sasuke too (and I think a huge part of Naruto's motivation was Sasuke's pep talk), but I don't think Sasuke realizes that. And all this after Sasuke basically layed his life at Naruto's feet! This is why Sasuke lashes out at Sakura: in that once frame, you can tell he's intensely angry at her. If it was Sakura's attention and adoration Sasuke wanted, he already has it: there she is at his bedside, trying cheer him up and feed him apples. But that's not what he wants. He wants Naruto's attention, and now that he's not longer ahead, he believes he's rapidly losing any chance of having it. This is why we see Sasuke obsessing over Naruto's line, "I'll protect Sakura-chan!" in the anime, even after Sasuke told him to do it. It's especially striking to me that all these rather innocuous flashbacks are put on the same level in Sasuke's head as his encounter with Itachi. Oh, to be thirteen again. (I also believe being that terrified and helpless reminded Sasuke, on the some level, of the Uchiha massacre. Which isn't going to help.) |
Maybe destroyed is too strong a word.irmgaard wrote: Naruto is upset and angry, but I think the events that followed show that their relationship was certainly not destroyed.
| I do think they still care a lot for each other, deep down. Maybe "changed for the forseeable future from it's previous, far more positive state". I do think they'll reconcile, though. |
Oh, I think at that moment, it was. On the other hand, Sasukeirmgaard wrote: And the speed with which Sasuke rushed to confront
Itachi, when he was accidently told where he was, clearly shows that his original plan of vengeance was still very much in place.
| basically offered up his life for a different purpose, twice. Once was unreflected upon, I admit. The second time was conscious choice: Sasuke knew he had no chance of surviving Gaara's attack. At that point, Naruto and Sakura were more important to him than defeating Itachi, and that goal was put aside. Even if it's true, I just don't see Sasuke saying, "I've lived to defeat you, but sort of got sidetracked by my friends, and sometimes they're more important to me than killing you. At the moment, however, killing you is my top priority!" It's just doesn't have the same punch. |
| To me, this says that Sasuke was considering giving up his goal of killing Itachi (and we know he did for at least brief periods of time). It's only after he's sabotaged every positive aspect of his life in Konoha that he can bring himself to leave; even so, he's clearly torn about what he's going to do. That's why Orochimaru sends in his goons to convince him. He knows he's on the fence about things. I do think it's impulsive (and yeah, stupid) to run off in the middle of the night with a bunch of people you don't know, to a man you can be fairly certain is deceptive and evil. I also don't think Sasuke actually made the decision to do that until he spoke with Orochimaru's goons, but your mileage may vary. It's easy to forget sometimes how young Sasuke is. At that point, I see him as a child putting himself at great risk due to the manipulation of adults and a falling out with his friends. Certainly he should know better, but I just can't see him as this cold, ultra-rational, calculating figure. That's Itachi, that's Orochimaru to a lesser degree, but not Sasuke (IMO). |
irmgaard wrote: But I don't see it in the
Valley of the End fight with Naruto.
|
I haven't decided whether I think Sasuke decided to try and kill Naruto before running away (in attempt to separate him from the others), or later at the VOTE. In any case, I think he did want to fight him. He had ample opportunity to knock Naruto unconscious and walk off as he did with Sakura, but instead spent a lot of time taunting Naruto and smacking him around. He took a lot of sadistic glee in it, too. How much of that is due to curse seal, I don't know. Personally, I think a lot of his own unresolved rage at Naruto added fuel to that fire. In any case, at some point, he clearly decided to kill Naruto, and then went back on it when he found he didn't have it in him. I think Sasuke waivers about a lot of things. Then again, a lot of the Naruto manga is up to interpretation until Kishimoto tells us the real truth down the road. |
This manga is just too good.irmgaard wrote:
this is a reproduction of the quaintly familiar adult lecture, "Now, Son, When I was a boy I had just the same thing happen to me...." that all adolescents automatically tune right out!
| Excuse it as you will; it matters little if one is an adolescent or an adult; bypassing intellect is tantamount to stupidity…just as lying by omission is still a lie! Even so, I might grant leniency if I thought for one moment that he tuned it out because Kakashi is an old coot whose opinion doesn't matter to him, rather than because this is the one thing that he doesn’t want to hear. It disrupts what he plans for his life, and that is something that he doggedly refuses to allow. Regarding your last sentence, though...this is a 'so what's your point?' moment for me. Most teens are stupid in that regard...and will even admit it in retrospect. "Argh, dad was right, dammit!" |
I wonder.No one else
could give him the power he sought
| But that aside, there was no rationality, no past experience, involved in thinking that he, who had been so easily, humiliatingly and recently bested by both Itachi and Orochimaru, would emerge the victor here. Therefore: irrational. If you want to call it reckless and add that to the list of his occasional shortcomings, feel free. |
Lol! You say tomato and I say tomahto. I’ll keep it short and sweet, because we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on the semantics for some of Sasuke’s less than stellar actions. I call ‘em as I see ‘em...and there's lots of room between,
"not stupid" and brilliant
| we've seen sasuke attack naruto with a killing intent though in the end he always stops himself or is stopped by someone else. in the case of when the group finds him in oro's layer and he's about to unleash some mega attack but is stopped. though even then i got the feeling deep down he didn't want to kill any of them. stop them, certainly, as they were attempting to bring him back to konoha and therefore stop his quest for itachi. and i also got the feelings of jealousy/inferiority. your comments about how he reacts to sakura in that scene are interesting. if you're a sakura/sasuke fan you could also take it as him being upset that she *may* start showing an interest in naruto as opposed to him... though i think the big factor, as you said, is his jealousy/feelings of hurt and that he wants to be in the 'big brother' type relationship with naruto where he is more powerful than naruto and naruto is looking up to him,etc. again this is probably also fueled by him thinking of naruto as a brother as there relationship was similar to the itachi/sasuke relationship. he has pretty much always focused on the negative side of things and while he has always acted superior, deep down he does have an inferiority complex due to his past. therefore, it's pretty natural that he would discount how he impacted naruto's burst of strength and focus only on naruto wanting to save sakura, instead of also seeing that saving sasuke and sasuke's pep talk was a huge motivating factor to naruto. in a lot of the scenes where naruto confronts him about returning, he gets a pensive expression on his face like he really does want to return, but he squishes it down because by golly he chose the path to kill itachi and he will do it. his singlemindedness is a double-edged sword in that yeah, it gives him purpose and helps him grow stronger physically, but it's also a big weakness as evident from madara's little speach. kakashi warned him in the beginning that he would be making a big mistake if he devoted his life to revenge, and lo and behold that's what happened. and now he seems to be on the path to making another big mistake... though i hope he's tricking tobi about destroying konoha (though i'm not holding my breath). i can totally see him going after danzo and the elders, and honestly someone needs to get rid of danzo/root/elders. but i really hope he's not hell bent on destroying all of konoha, because then he'd be no better than the villains he hates so much and it would be discounting what itachi did to save the village. afterall the village as a whole had nothing to do with it, the kids had nothing to do with it, naruto/sakura/etc had nothing to do with it,etc. the current village as a whole has evolved its way of doing things (i.e. emphasis on peace as opposed to war). it's only the few that have other goals in mind. i'm also reminded of the sand village and poor chiyo. the way chiyo's generation acted in sand reminds me a lot of danzo/elders in konoha. except she realized that the way they did things wasn't good and her whole life she made mistakes when trying to help the village. though i think this realization may have come during her talks with the kakashi team and seeing how sasori turned out. i don't see danzo coming to that realization. chiyo said that naruto's generation would be a lot different/better... but i think for that to happen they have to either change the old generations (i.e. elders) thinking or the old generation needs to be disposed of somehow as there can't really be peace in konoha as long as danzo has free reign since he will always be working for other goals. this is evident in the initial bridge mission after the rescue gaara arc, where even the hokage couldn't do as she felt was best for the village since danzo had so much power and basically forced her to assign an individual to the kakashi team. i think this point was where we first got a feel that things in konoha might not be as fantastic/simple as they appeared and that there were political factors at work that may not be 'good'. naturalgrace wrote "In any case, I think he did want to fight him. He had ample opportunity to knock Naruto unconscious and walk off as he did with Sakura, but instead spent a lot of time taunting Naruto and smacking him around. He took a lot of sadistic glee in it, too. How much of that is due to curse seal, I don't know. Personally, I think a lot of his own unresolved rage at Naruto added fuel to that fire. In any case, at some point, he clearly decided to kill Naruto, and then went back on it when he found he didnt have it in him. I think Sasuke waivers about a lot of things. " I think part of sasuke's motivation there was also his inferiority complex. he was tired of feeling like he wasn't strong enough. he was tired of being beaten down by itachi. he was angry at himself for not being strong enough/being walked on by itachi. he's also probably angry that he was left alive. then there was seeing naruto show tremendous strength and growing stronger by leaps and bounds while in sasuke's mind he was standing still. he was very young during that fight and he'd been through a lot. he's been shown to not exactly be mr. mature and unfortunately it seems like a common way for immature people to handle their own feelings of worthlessness is to lash out at someone else (i.e. the bullied becoming the bully). add to that, that he was told the only way he could get the ms and even think of being able to fight itachi was if he killed his best friend. so yes, i also think during that fight he had decided he would kill naruto. but when it came time to actually doing it, he couldn't because deep down he did care for naruto and he really didn't want to be like his brother. i think a lot of why he changes his mind so much is because he's been manipulated into a certain path and that path is one that deep down he doesn't necessarily want/agree with. as mentioned previously in the thread, he was considering giving up on his itachi goal and he had to sabotage his current life in order to get back on track with his goal. he chose to seek vengeance on itachi, but he was also manipulated into making that choice. in any case, enough long-windedness as my memory isn't so great so i can't give fantasic examples. and i do have to get back to work... |
Well, if I'm wrong aboutfunshine wrote: and i also got the feelings of jealousy/inferiority.
your comments about how he reacts to sakura in that scene are interesting. if you're a sakura/sasuke fan you could also take it as him being upset that she *may* start showing an interest in naruto as opposed to him... though i think the big factor, as you said, is his jealousy/feelings of hurt and that he wants to be in the 'big brother' type relationship with naruto where he is more powerful than naruto and naruto is looking up to him,etc. again this is probably also fueled by him thinking of naruto as a brother as there relationship was similar to the itachi/sasuke relationship.
| Sasuke having less than platonic feelings for Naruto, which I admit I very well could be, |
But I wouldn't be terribly disappointed if they just settled into a brotherly sort of bond. Basically, I just want to see them reunited and happy again, regardless of the details.| As the for the Sasuke/Sakura thing, I think if Sasuke wanted to reel in Sakura hook, line and sinker at that point, he could. Actually, he wouldn't even have to do that. He could simply pay her slightly more attention, act a bit nicer, and any sort of attention she'd been paying to Naruto would be gone real fast, no large effort or violence necessary. Certainly, the thing to do if he worried about losing her Naruto would not be to rebuff her advances by slapping the food she'd made for him out of her hand. Whereas, if he believes A) he has no chance of getting the sort of attention he wants from Naruto, is hurt and angry about it, and partially blames Sakura, and/or B) he thinks can reverse positions with Naruto once again (in several ways) by defeating him, his actions make sense. That's why I think he's jealous of Naruto's fixation on Sakura and not vice versa, but that's just my 2 cents. |
Absolutely. When I was watching the episodes about his childhood,funshine wrote: he has pretty much always focused on the negative side of things and while he has always acted superior, deep down he does have an inferirioty complex due to his past.
| pre-massacre, it was amazing to me how far Kishimoto had gone in developing Sasuke's "issues"-- all the way down to his dad ignoring him as a child and unfavourably comparing him to his older brother. |
That's so true. For all his talk, I don't think Sasukefunshine wrote: in a lot of the scenes where naruto confronts him
about returning, he gets a pensive expression on his face like he really does want to return, but he squishes it down because by golly he chose the path to kill itachi and he will do it.
| believes he deserves to be forgiven, be happy, or be alive after everything he's done. |
| If Sasuke dies, I'll be so disappointed. That's an easy way out for him. It may even be what he wants at this point. I want him to accept what's happened and learn to live for something other than vengeance. |
Amen to that!naturalgrace wrote:
If Sasuke dies, I'll be so disappointed. That's an easy way out for him. It may even be what he wants at this point. I want him to accept what's happened and learn to live for something other than vengeance.
| It would be nice for Sasuke to accept his crummy past, realize the importance of friendship with Naruto & Sakura, and move forward with life.
|
| oh my. i didn't think of the sasuke has less than platonic feelings for naruto thing. i'd rather a naruto/sasuke pairing than a naruto/sakura pairing though. ^-^ though i still really like naruto/hinita... hmm. the more i think of it, the more i think that scene definately did not imply a sakura/sasuke non-platonic relationship. at the point in time where naruto saves them from gaara, i think sasuke's jealousy was more in line with him wanting to be #1. and he was always #1 to sakura and took that for granted. if she started developing feelings for naruto, sasuke would no longer be #1 and would lose again to someone else. i don't think the motivating factor was really that he cared what he was losing at that point, just that he was losing. esp since from the beginning he thought of naruto as a loser who played pranks,etc but was pretty weak. naruto already 'beat' him at fighting by winning in the fight with gaara. so yeah, i think the jealousy is naruto's fixation on sakura and not vice versa. and this can be said regardless of whether sasuke's feelings for naruto are platonic or not. i absolutely agree with you about: "That's so true. For all his talk, I don't think Sasuke believes he deserves to be forgiven, be happy, or be alive after everything he's done." this is most likely compounded now that he has learned that he betrayed his friends (who believed in him 100% and would do anything for him, even die) to kill his brother, who was only protecting him from the very start. naturalgrace: "If Sasuke dies, I'll be so disappointed. That's an easy way out for him. It may even be what he wants at this point. I want him to accept what's happened and learn to live for something other than vengeance." icatino: "It would be nice for Sasuke to accept his crummy past, realize the importance of friendship with Naruto & Sakura, and move forward with life." exactly! i definately want him to accept, move on, and realize the importance of his friendship with naruto & sakura. i'd be very disappointed if he died, even if it was to save sakura or naruto. |
Yes, well, I don't dare dream the manga will turn out that way. Though there is a lot of evidencefunshine wrote:oh my.
| that Sasuke likes Naruto (perhaps one day I'll sit down and hash it all out; there's even some supportive statements from Kishimto), there's plenty of evidence that Naruto doesn't consider Sasuke anything more than his best friend / brother-type figure. |
For most of the series, I think he just put on that attitude get a reaction from Naruto. I think he abandons that view once we pass the Wave Country arc. After that, I take his insults as him teasing Naruto or lashing out in anger. I do think that even before Wave Country, he likes Naruto on some level and wants his attention/admiration. I could pull a bunch of a manga scans to show why I believe that but I'm feeling lazy.funshine wrote:esp since from the beginning he thought of naruto as a loser who played pranks,etc but was pretty weak.
