Is it possible to have a cel w/out a number?

MidniteKitten · Post by **MidniteKitten** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:04 pm

Ok so I did some SM screencap hunting and found my Usagi Eating cel. Well boy was I surprised when she was an A1. But what came to my mind was that I don't believe this cel was ever trimmed as I once believed. The cel shows far more than the adequate "extra" from the screencap cels usually have. Here is my reasoning:

Since the cel "bounces" maybe registration holes would have been cumbersome. Cameras can only pan in up and down (for cel animation that is) so all other movement is done on the cel itself so this bouncing was done by pulling it up and down. Is it possible the sheet of acetate has always been like this and it was never labeled due to rush or whatever else?

I found the whole thing to be very interesting and thought I would ask other peoples takes on the matter. I've linked to the youtube video with time specifics to where the cel appears so you can see what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyaLgDOkqgI
Starting at 1:10 you can see what I mean

And here is the cel in question:
http://midnitekitten.rubberslug.com/gal ... mID=270005

kizu · Post by **kizu** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:51 pm

I don't know. I have some pretty odd size pan cels, horizontal, diagonal, vertical, all of them have registration holes and sequence numbers. The cels range from 2-3 decades ago to 2001. The sizes are from 14 to as much as 30 inches.

MidniteKitten · Post by **MidniteKitten** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:13 pm

I'm not so much concerned about size and whether that dictates holes or not but rather that this cel "bounces" and it may have made sense to not attatch holes if it wasn't going to be stationary? I'm really not sure how to explain it better in text >.<;

kizu · Post by **kizu** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:10 pm

Yes I looked at the video, I think I understood what you were asking (of course I could be wrong). I have a large cel that bounces a bit more than that and it has a sequence number. The reason I mention large pans and dates, is to just indicate that some of them didn't make sense to have registration holes and I doubted if they were actually stationary, but from old to newer shows they have sequence numbers. The only time it didn't was when the show was too old that the cel number faded (unless trimmed of course), however if the cel came with the sketch then from what I've read, they tend to be more authentic (not likely to be a fancel or fake). If your cel came with a sketch then there's a better chance it is production. Also the same applies if it came with the matching production background.

ReiTheJelly · Post by **ReiTheJelly** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:31 am

Although I cannot speak to your specific cel, I do know that all of the cels from this sequence in the Vision of Escaflowne do not have sequence numbers (or tap holes, for that matter): http://stemcels.rubberslug.com/gallery/ ... emID=59192

Moop · Post by **Moop** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:20 am

MidniteKitten wrote:The cel shows far more than the adequate "extra" from the screencap cels usually have.

Look again. In the video, her jacket shows clear to the bottom, and more of her skirt is showing than your cel has on it. Also, the fact that the paint goes to the edge of the acetate is a good indicator that either it was trimmed, or it's a fan cel. If you're convinced it's production artwork, then that only leaves one other option.

Plus, the cel would have originally been much wider on the left, to leave room for the action of the accompanying layer of the little girl. Again, almost certainly trimmed.

I've never heard of 'hand bouncing' a cel. In this sequence, it looks as though the camera is just going up and down.

Post by **sensei** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:30 am

The actual mechanics of photographing cels is handled in detail in Jan Scott Frazier's online article Beyond TV Safety. As I read her description (and she did work for an anime production company in Japan) there are various layers on the photographing table, each of which has a set of cranks, and the distance each layer moves is carefully noted and controlled by the camera operator. Most multilayer set-ups I've gotten where the layers move in contrary directions have one group with registration holes on top and at least one with registration holes on the bottom. These tend to be oversized, and I have gotten some that were trimmed for sale because their extra size made them bulky or difficult to store with others in the dealer's stock.

dude_moose · Post by **dude_moose** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:38 am

The set-up they had at the Ghibli Museum had cranks for panning left-right and up-down, as well as for zooming in and out. Given how tightly framed the image is (there is little space between her buns and the top of the cel, and there is no blank acetate at the bottom), I'm guessing it was trimmed.

The first cel that I ever bought was also very oversized once and had been trimmed before it fell into my hands. I later got the accompanying sketch and that had also been trimmed same as the cel, so it may have even been done by the studio or the person who obtained them originally.

MidniteKitten · Post by **MidniteKitten** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:33 pm

Thanks all for your input. You learn something new every day ^w^ (cranks, never had heard of in cel animation) As for the cel itself, the previous owner bought it trimmed from a seller whom she said was reliable and I don't believe there'd be much reason to fan cel the scene seeing as it didn't sell for near what other fan cel-ed scenes can go for. Thanks again everyone, guess I was just being hopeful someone hadn't really taken scissors to her. *sigh*

Anime-Beta TNG

Is it possible to have a cel w/out a number?

Is it possible to have a cel w/out a number?

Re: Is it possible to have a cel w/out a number?