Are UV rays protection the anime Loch-Ness monster ?...

[iceman57]

Well, dummy question day...

Heard tons of argumentation relative to anime cel protection.
In my opinion, buying a glass able to block UV to not affect lines sounds like a Q10 cream commercial with Jane Fonda.

When you visit a museum there are only rare UV protections on paintings, so why would anime cel be different. They are not an Egyptian mummy or Dracula dying at the second it crossed a ray of light (say hey to the Gargoyles).

I also have a note about the vision of art, when you go to a museum, you see hundred years old arts, but they are not looking like their first year by beeing scratched, bumped, color faded...
Whatever their condition they are valuable.
So are we trying to catch Road Runner by inventing processes coming from our desire of perpetual life without taking into account that acrylic paintings on cels will continue to exists after us ?...

Regular glass already reflects a portion of UV light.
So maybe by reading the opinion of people owning cels from old Disney, Filmation or DIC this'd be interesting to have a feeback.

Comments welcome, this really interests me.

[sensei]

I had a very impressive cel of Kerberos (from Cardcaptor Sakura framed in UV-resistant glass and installed it in my office, where the sun never shines and the rain never falls, but which does have a bank of fluorescent lights. Within six months the line fading was easy to see, compared with the scan I'd done when it had arrived. So I took it down, removed the cel from the frame, and returned it to the cel book, where in the past eight years it has not visibly changed further.

This might be an extreme case, as the trace lines changed in a place where the cel paint was a bright orange. I know from further collecting that reds, yellows, oranges, and browns react most strongly with trace lines, and so the light might have speeded up the process rather than causing it. That said, I never again attempted to frame or display a cel in my collection.

[Moop]

I also have a note about the vision of art, when you go to a museum, you see hundred years old arts, but they are not looking like their first year by beeing scratched, bumped, color faded...
Whatever their condition they are valuable.

Unlike a Van Gogh or Renoir masterpiece, there are quite literally millions of cels floating around - and whether you're talking about their personal value or their cash value, it will never be as high when the trace lines have faded to invisibility. They are far more susceptible to aesthetically unattractive change than the oil paintings you see in a museum (which are generally not subjected to much UV, anyway) - so why take the chance of rushing the process?

I'm with sensei on this one. I have three framed cels...which are now kept safe and sound in a dark closet - the best UV protection of all.

[Belldandy16]

i think quite awhile ago someone here suggested to print off a high quality scan of thier piece, frame that and hang it on the wall... that way you can still see your piece and since its a copy you dont have to worry about it being damaged or have to pay the high price for UV glass. Your cel will be safe and sound in the cel book and you will still be able to see it (or its copy i should say).

hey have any of you ever bought your cels already framed?
thats the way mine are with my batman cels...
http://darknightcels.rubberslug.com/gal ... mID=233707
http://darknightcels.rubberslug.com/gal ... mID=233706
they came to me framed by the warner brothers studio (from the warner stores that closed a long time ago). i dont know if they used special glass or even acid free backing.

Sensei, do you think i should take them out of the frames and put them in my books?
ive been debating this for quite awhile now but im worried that once i open up the backs of the frames ill find a nightmare (im worried they actually taped the cels to the backgrounds *shudder*). one of the cels is actually starting to (for lack of a better word), 'wrinkle' (you can see the plastic very wavy). do you know why its doing that?

Also im worried once i get in the frame ill never be able to put the frames back together if i have to.
what do you think i should do?

[iceman57]

Thank you all for those precious notes.

At my side I'm proceeding tests on few samples from 1960 to 2000.
It of course can't represent the whole huge billions of cels used in studios, but is a singular test...

I'm working in automotive industry and we have some elements such as oils or other products that have a limit of use.

After having discussed several times with a Spanish factory of UV sterilising machines and material tests for outdoor industry, we defined a possible valid level of UV light of 160Watts/squaremeter.

http://toshiro.rubberslug.com/gallery/i ... mID=269884

What the machine does :
15 minutes = 4 hours on a beach at 31 degrees (farenheit) full summer sun.

You may laugh about the archaic way and sample size (sorry but it as a cost took on my personnal cash, and I'm not a company), but I think this is a good way to test if a period of light affects lines.

In my opinion, if over a simulated year lines have no damages, as I'm an industrial, there's somewhere else to seek the cause of line damage :
- Frame Cel non breathing
- Cel book plastic
- Cel plastic sheet
- Acrylic paint
- Ambiant temperature
...

You may easily understand that I'm quite new to the community, and certaily with a partial vision of anime cel, but I'm really surprised by the "light" quoted generally to be centralizing all the worst effects on cel.

Comments welcome.

[iceman57]

Unlike a Van Gogh or Renoir masterpiece, there are quite literally millions of cels floating around - and whether you're talking about their personal value or their cash value, it will never be as high when the trace lines have faded to invisibility.
They are far more susceptible to aesthetically unattractive change than the oil paintings you see in a museum (which are generally not subjected to much UV, anyway) - so why take the chance of rushing the process?

I agree with this vision but history offer us example of oil damaged paintings.

Here is the "The Raft of the Medusa" (le radeau de la meduse) from Louvre museum. Crossing with Sensei information about specific color reaction.



Links :

http://www.louvre.fr/llv/oeuvres/detail ... mLocale=en

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raft_of_the_Medusa

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... A9duse.jpg

A pigment based on tar used in the painting progressively crunches the other colors.
Since the 1819 year, the painting is going to be darker and darker till beeing a total black painting.

Today in 2009, after 190 years of color darkering, this masterpiece is still part of the top 10 Louvre masterpieces.

[Moop]

I wasn't denying the damage to - or the value of - recognized masterpieces. On the contrary, I was trying to imply (and obviously doing a poor job of it) that it is their rarity which ensures that their intrinsic value remains undiminished.

Cels, on the other hand, are so common that the majority lack much in the way of intrinsic value. The more damaged they become, the less they are worth - aesthetically as well as monetarily. It's sad to see a once beautiful cel with scarcely any visible lines...but experience has shown that while it might receive a lot of pity from collectors, it won't receive a lot of bids on YJ.

[iceman57]

...rarity which ensures that their intrinsic value remains undiminished...
... Cels, on the other hand, are so common...

If 99% of cels are damage by their own life, this will become the standard condition.
IMO when this time will arrive, this'll no more be YJ, but auctions specialists as Sotheby's or Christies...

Do some collectors have scans of damaged cels from ordering till the one year damage effects as I can see the poll results ?
I may suppose that we're talking about short term results that I'll normally be able to recreate if light is the unique vector.

[Belldandy16]

OH! i see. im sorry. i understand now . i didnt realize why you were asking your questions before.

thats great you are trying to find ways to keep them from being damaged by light. good luck on your research!

[iceman57]

Pardon my non native english, and possible construction mistakes...
There are other tests under process.

Datas would not be considered as valid as sample size is too small
But I try to explore some ways and hope that this'll give ideas for further tests or inspire other people.

I've an external vision on anime cel, so this may look funny, but doing the parallax with problems in warehouse storage is really interesting.

Note that all cels that'll burn on UV tests had the autorisation from their salers to be UV tested. I respect this art.

For line fading, I currently bet more on acid, than on light...

If they are on this board some Disney collectors with old cels framed with regular glass or anime 70's fans, that'd be interesting to cross opinions.

[iceman57]

I had a very impressive cel of Kerberos (from Cardcaptor Sakura framed in UV-resistant glass and installed it in my office, where the sun never shines and the rain never falls, but which does have a bank of fluorescent lights. Within six months the line fading was easy to see, compared with the scan I'd done when it had arrived. So I took it down, removed the cel from the frame, and returned it to the cel book, where in the past eight years it has not visibly changed further.

Xenon light ?... Maybe another way to explore...

[graymouser]

I have heard many people say that lines have faded faster when the cels have been framed - even when under UV glass.

I have over thirty pieces framed. I had the framing done professionally with archival safe (correct terminology ?) materials and UV blocking plastic instead of glass. Even with multiple solid hooks attaching them to the walls, I am worried about items falling and broken glass damaging the cels. Half of the items are stored in a closet and none of them are hung in direct light. Some of these cels have been framed for over seven years including a few on display the entire time.

For the most part, I see no major difference in line fading between those in the closet and those on display. Except for two of them, the fading has been very minor. The two cels with more noticeable fading have been framed about three years. They come from the same show which has a reputation for line fading. I am pretty sure that in those two cases the fading is due the paints that the studio used. My general feeling is that displaying them may speed up the fading a little but that most of it would have happened anyways.

Of course my personal experience is hardly scientific nor objective. It would be nice to see the results of more impartial testing. I am very interested in the details of Iceman's studies. It would also be nice to know if UV plastic verses UV glass changes anything. Maybe other factors such as the ability of the cels to breathe in the frames or the chemical makeup of the other framing materials have more to do with it.

[iceman57]

Thank you for this really pleasant detailed experience.

A physician teacher told me the regular glass already reflects UV.
The spanish machine maker told me that to recreate light, UV neons are not exact because some Xenon light is missing (maybe crossing with Sensei's story).

As I wrote up, I'm quite new in anime cel (for 2 years...) and can't be able to raise funds to built a realistic scientific study.
But, well,.. how can I say this without shocking people,... I strongly think day after day that I sit near of the machine with goggles to protect my eyes and in T-shirt to face 30°C, that UV is not the main cause.

UV is certainly one cause but not the major one, and I may really suppose that things like triacetate, air, plastic wrap, acrylic paint may occur damages.

I'm an industrial by my knowledges and experience, when we proceed quality destructive tests and we are not able to recreate a damage (whatever is sample size), this generate doubt and maybe the process is not the right way...

Any other interesting stories or comments ?...

Disney collectors or Grimault collectors may have a vision on long term conservation ?... What about Filmation or DIC production ?...

[iceman57]

I am very interested in the details of Iceman's studies.

I'm honored.
Here is 20 minutes of UV like your anime cel may face in a month of time.

Result : nothing... so the game continues

[iceman57]

I had a very impressive cel of Kerberos (from Cardcaptor Sakura framed in UV-resistant glass and installed it in my office, where the sun never shines and the rain never falls, but which does have a bank of fluorescent lights. Within six months the line fading was easy to see, compared with the scan I'd done when it had arrived.

After some investigation in my office I found a place able to fit "neon" test.

This is close to a teammate office, there is a bank of fluorescent light that are lighten night and day.

We arranged an handicraft testbench on the top of a large furniture, in a deep carton in order to cut light coming from side windows and only receive top neon light.

We'll put tomorrow morning an "Hajime No Ippo" anime cel for sacrifice inside the carton box during a month, then I'll scan it. This'll be again a "Miyata neck in blue running outfit".

As my teammate works some meters from this corridor, he'll keep it safe during tests

If some other people have ideas, there are welcome