Vegetarianism...not bad

Killua · Post by **Killua** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:12 pm

My wife and I are on-again off-again quasi-half vegetarians.

We don't believe it's wrong to eat animals solely because they're animals, we just don't agree with how most meat animals are treated. So we'll eat free range meat and fish, and if we're feeling weak we might order meat dishes from restaurants, although my wife is much better about this than I am.

Vegetarianism is definitely healthy for you if you're a grown person. However, if you're trying to gain muscle or if you're a child, meat is an essential part of one's diet. It greatly influences how big you'll get, how much muscle mass you'll develop, etc. This isn't important for a normal adult, though, especially if you're an American.

We need to be more concerned about heart disease.

It's much easier to be vegetarian when you live in an area with more ethnic food. Thai, Indian, Japanese, yum.

Those who live in the middle of nowhere, they are the true heroes.

Sylia · Post by **Sylia** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:05 pm

I've been vegetarian since I was 11 years old. Oddly enough, I didn't have any problem developing muscle... I'd have more trouble keeping it off if that's what I wanted XD.

I'm surprised but happy at the number of veggies showing up in this thread ^^. Especially those with the environmental concerns... I think that's really cool! Go you!

I believe in it for the environmental and health reasons, but fundamentally it was originally for the fact that I dislike depriving a life without a really good reason. I'm not even a particularly big animal lover lol... I just can't justify my quick enjoyment of a cheese burger or whatever or one family roast in exchange for a life, even if that life is 'inferior' from the human perspective. There has to be a really good reason for it for me, like if I was from a small tribe and depended on fishing and hunting for survival or whatever. Since the world I lived in was so cosmopolitan, I had other options.

Now I have it down to a fine art and know all the best substitutes ^_^. (For those craving good old greasey, fattening burgers, try a Morningstar Farms 'Veggie Grillers- Prime" for full effect. stick it in a honey wheat bun and add some processed cheese, mustard, ketchup and a gherkin and you have your authetic McDonald's cheeseburger). Seriously, I would not say it's 'hard'. I've managed fine even from childhood. Just be smart about what you eat (good advice for anyone). It's easier in the UK where by law we label things as suitable for vegetarian or not, but it's doable in the US too. I don't crave 'real' meat... after not eating it for so long it looks rather disgusting to me psychologically and otherwise XD.

Also, I don't really eat out much anyway. Eating out is expensive and gets kind of fattening sometimes... I like to control what I have and I like to know what's in it, be able to make it with healthier ingredients if I want etc; know how much fibre, vitimins and fat are in it... protein. That way I know if I'm getting enough of everything or not.

My suggestion to new vegetarians is, try a bit of everything out to see what you like, and try to keep very loose track of how much nutrition you're getting depending on the combination of foods you eat. Pay extra special attention to not eating too much salt since most things that go in the microwave have it in large amounts... that goes for everyone lol. Your health feels so much better if you try to keep your sodium intake from getting high every day. Just one veggie sausage may have 30% of your salt allowance per day- that's quite a lot. Try and change it up so you balnce eating things like that in a day with eating low salt things for the rest of the day; don't eat higher salt containing things every day... Same goes for saturated fats. And do get a lot of calcium and iron. As well as supplements, eggs and spinach are great for that. Meat eaters have to worry about this too though- there is not necessarily as much nutrition in a lot of stuff as it might seem. Just use common sense, pay attention to what you put in you, and you'll do fine.

I think those with an pen mind to trying different types of food will probably do best of all with a veggie diet (like Killua said, Asian food is definately a plus).

Good luck all

!

Not Sir Phobos · Post by **Not Sir Phobos** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:42 pm

Whatever you gotta do to get your body healthy is what you gotta do. There are a few things I've learned throughout the years about strictly vegetarian diets however. Your body is designed to eat meat and vegetables, we are omnivors by design and our system runs best when we eat proteins and vegitables. If you start vegan diet too early in life or even start a newborn on a vegan diet you actually are doing more harm than good, there are 6 essential proteins that can only be found in animal meat that cannot be replicated by nuts or other plant life. It does not take much protein input though to make up this difference however, a few eggs a week and it's totally fine. There is a case out there last time I looked into this subject where a vegan mom and pop started their kid on a strict vegan diet and it died from malnutrition. The adult body is more adept at converting to a vegetarian or vegan diet though as it is no longer growing and forming and it's totally fine.

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:19 pm

Not Sir Phobos wrote:Whatever you gotta do to get your body healthy is what you gotta do. There are a few things I've learned throughout the years about strictly vegetarian diets however. Your body is designed to eat meat and vegetables, we are omnivors by design and our system runs best when we eat proteins and vegitables. If you start vegan diet too early in life or even start a newborn on a vegan diet you actually are doing more harm than good, there are 6 essential proteins that can only be found in animal meat that cannot be replicated by nuts or other plant life. It does not take much protein input though to make up this difference however, a few eggs a week and it's totally fine. There is a case out there last time I looked into this subject where a vegan mom and pop started their kid on a strict vegan diet and it died from malnutrition. The adult body is more adept at converting to a vegetarian or vegan diet though as it is no longer growing and forming and it's totally fine.

Actually, that is a bit misleading. While animal proteins contain more of the nine essential proteins needed in the human diet per serving, all nine proteins can be found in adequate quantities in the plant world. The body can only handle so much protein at a time, and the consumption of too much protein is actually harmful to one's health (kidney problems, digestive problems, liver enzyme increases). Infants up to six months who are fed breast milk from vegan mothers have been shown to maintain healthy weight and stave off infections at a higher level. Studies have found no inherent health issues in children who were raised on a strict vegan diet rich in foods that contain calcium, zinc, and iron. The only vitamin that must be supplemented into the diet is B12.

Killua · Post by **Killua** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:20 pm

I don't think breast milk from vegans lacks any of the proteins needed by the body. The body can synthesize on its own all of the amino acids we need, albeit in limited quantity. That's why vegans who might be missing an amino acid or two don't up and die.

I don't doubt children raised as vegans have no inherent health problems, but they definitely won't grow up to be as big or tall as they could have otherwise. Fat and meat are good for getting big.

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:07 am

Killua wrote:I don't doubt children raised as vegans have no inherent health problems, but they definitely won't grow up to be as big or tall as they could have otherwise. Fat and meat are good for getting big.

That's another falsehood, based on no statistical evidence whatsoever. According to tests done by Dr. Charles Attwood (a leading pediatrician), children who were raised on vegan diets averaged out just as tall, and in many cases taller, than their meat-eating peers. They also averaged higher IQ's. John Robbins says as much in his books. There are long term clinical studies which back this up as well. Fat and meat consumption, which boomed in the early 20th century, is the cause of America's inherent obesity and heart disease epidemic. It is also linked with the growing rate of osteoporosis in women.

Christian Bale - Vegetarian since age six

Jennifer Connelly - Vegan since childhood. Measurements: 34C/D-22-34 and 5'7"

Pamela Anderson - Became a vegetarian at age 12. She looks...healthy.

Forest Whitaker - Became a vegan in his early teens.

Tobey Maguire - Became a vetetarian in his teens.

Killua · Post by **Killua** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:00 am

blueheaven wrote:That's another falsehood, based on no statistical evidence whatsoever. According to tests done by Dr. Charles Attwood (a leading pediatrician), children who were raised on vegan diets averaged out just as tall, and in many cases taller, than their meat-eating peers. They also averaged higher IQ's. John Robbins says as much in his books. There are long term clinical studies which back this up as well.

You might say it's based on no statistical evidence, but that wouldn't be true. I could link here easily a dozen studies showing a link with no problem whatsoever. Even the language used by a lot of pro-vegetarian studies/websites is telling. They often say that children reared as vegans are often "up to average or in some cases exceeding average" height. That there is language used by someone who doesn't want to admit something.

Fat and meat consumption, which boomed in the early 20th century, is the cause of America's inherent obesity and heart disease epidemic. It is also linked with the growing rate of osteoporosis in women.

I think you're singing to the chorus here.

Btw, I don't think you should've included Tobey McGuire in your list of anecdotal celebrity evidence. He is not a person who I'd think of as robust and healthy.

I'm curious also as to why you included Jennifer Connelly's bust size, but uh, I'm not complaining.

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:27 am

Killua wrote: You might say it's based on no statistical evidence, but that wouldn't be true. I could link here easily a dozen studies showing a link with no problem whatsoever. Even the language used by a lot of pro-vegetarian studies/websites is telling. They often say that children reared as vegans are often "up to average or in some cases exceeding average" height. That there is language used by someone who doesn't want to admit something.

And yet, no links. That is the language used by someone who has a stance without legs. The truth is, there are no credible studies which show that a proper vegan diet is in any way detrimental to the development of a child. If you are referring to the articles written by Dr. Stephen Byrnes, those articles have been widely discredited as being most anecdotal rather than clinical.

I'm also willing to bet that Tobey Maguire is in better shape than most meat eaters.

Killua · Post by **Killua** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:14 am

Never heard of Dr. Byrnes. I didn't post any links because you didn't, and so I felt I didn't need to. But since you insist...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3414589
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/42/6/1246
Nice chart from a study: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/3/579S/T2
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index. ... row=267357
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3046310
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... t/84/3/475
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7288184
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... t/60/4/410
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 08873.html

There ye go. Also, for, most of the pro-vegan studies, they say the growth of vegan children is "normal" or within the "normal range". This language should cue you in because they don't like to get specific. If you go past the abstract and look at their data, you'll find that young children reared as vegans are slightly shorter than normal children, but still within the "normal" range.

I'm sure Tobey Macguire is healthier than most meat eaters. Most vegetarians are. Plus, most Americans anyway are very unhealthy people. But his musculature as evidence for there being no difference for muscle growth between vegans and meat eaters is extremely anecdotal. It is definitely much much harder to gain muscle when you're a vegan. Note I didn't say you couldn't do it. There are vegan body builders, after all. But it is harder and takes a longer time. It's also easier if you're a lacto-ovo vegetarian. Milk and eggs are very useful for gaining muscle.

Btw, according to some quick research, Christian Bale regularly eats fish, and sometimes chicken. He gained muscle for Batman Begins on a tuna fish and pizza diet.

dbzmomma · Post by **dbzmomma** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:16 pm

I'm neither vegan nor vegetarian, but you can get adequate protein (and fiber!!) from beans, soy and quinoa (sp?). Infants need fat for proper brain development, so that has to be considered. I would say that fast food, processed foods and sugar are kids worst problems today. Unfortunately, we live in a fast food society.

Like some other topics, this one is explosive. (Fiber... get it? Explosive?)

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:16 pm

Let's take each article one at a time...

1. "It is concluded that provided sufficient care is taken, a vegan diet can support normal growth and development." Notice they did not outline the parameters of what type of diet these people were one. For all we know, they were not on a proper vegan diet.

2. Once again, this study did not use the proper vegan diet as it's base study group.

3. Once again, the diet?

4. Um, it's a repeat of #1. Did you read it? Same problems, though.

5. This supports my argument. It does not mention a single word about a decrease in strength and size for vegan children.

"Acceptable and appropriate vegetarian diets fulfill the Recommended Dietary Allowances and other authoritative dietary guidelines dealing with balance, variety, moderation, and developmental appropriateness of diets for children."

6. The study says that the difference in growth meets the national deviation of growth amongst children that age. And, once again, this was not a controlled study.

7. A repeat of #3, once again, same problems.

8. Hmmm, they said that vegan children started out smaller, but as of two years old met or exceeded normal weight expectations. And once again, no study parameters.

9. "Professor Tom Sanders, research director of nutrition and dietetics at King's College London, criticised her for extrapolating from a group in a developing country that had a relatively deprived diet. "Taking people who have limited food choices and adding animal products will provide elements missing from their restricted diets. But where you have a good choice in developed countries, you can select a balanced vegan diet even for children," he said."

You know who Tom Sanders is? He's the guy you quoted in #3 and 7. Even he thinks this "study" is bullshit.

The study I gave, used a sampling of vegan households who met specific parameters of a complete vegan diet. The studies you provided gave no specifics on what these children were fed, nor imposed any set of guidelines for their research. Amusing read, though.

As for Bale's Batman diet...

http://www.motleyhealth.com/articles/20 ... night.html

And, Tuna is part of a vegetarian diet. It's called Pescatarian living. I eat fish three times a week. For Batman, Bale remained meatless. He only at tuna when he worked on the Machinist so he wouldn't starve (he went down to 100lbs by eating a can of tuna and an apple every day).

Momma - Gotta love that fiber! POOT!

Killua · Post by **Killua** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:11 pm

You didn't name a specific study at all. You mostly just named Dr. Charles Atwood. Care to provide a link?

Also, pescetarianism isn't vegetarianism. At least most vegetarians don't consider it to be. You can call it that if you want to... but fish ain't vegetables.

I also don't think you read those studies with a mind that wasn't already made up, but it doesn't matter. Finals approacheth and an in depth argument about this is the last thing I need.

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:43 pm

The study was part of a book Attwood wrote on the subject. No links to it because that would be illegal. Go to a local library and check it out.

Dr. Attwoodâ€™s Low-Fat Prescription for Kids 1995

The study was controlled, regimented, and followed normal testing guidelines (reduction of variables that was not present in the studies you provided). The studies you cited were incomplete or had inherent biases due to unacknowledged variables in diet. One of the folks you cited even said one of your examples was "rubbish." And two of your examples were repeats of the same study.

Good luck on the finals.

Killua · Post by **Killua** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:07 pm

If it were a serious study it would have been published in a scientific journal. As I don't have a copy of that book lying around, and since it seems you have read the book and have access to it, if you could give the title of the study that would be useful.

blueheaven · Post by **blueheaven** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:30 pm

Killua wrote:If it were a serious study it would have been published in a scientific journal. As I don't have a copy of that book lying around, and since it seems you have read the book and have access to it, if you could give the title of the study that would be useful.

Many of your "studies" were published in journals, and they were anything but serious in their approach. Get a library card, they're free. You can say that I had my mind made up beforehand, but I used simple logic to poke holes in your "studies" (which you obviously didn't even take the time to read).