How Are Toei Cels Released?

[Strictly-Dragonball]

I was just wondering about this, I was thinking about DBZ mainly but I assume it will be the similar for each show.

How do Toe release their cels? Is it all at once after the completion of the anime or in parts?

When DBZ was running originally in Japan how were the cels released onto the market and are they released specifically for collectors? Were none held back?

[Tabbykitty]

I can't speak to Toei's practices specifically, just from what I've heard from different people and dealers throughout the years.

Some people relate stories of dumpster diving, where cels would be thrown out en masse, and collectors would be haunting the grounds eager to snag what they could from the trash. This fits with most studios, since once the episode was finished, the cels themselves were considered trash. It even occurred early on in this country, specifically with warner brothers and disney. During the time period they were starting out, celluloid was hard to come by and was frequently washed and reused, or, put through a process similar to "dip" that we see in Roger Rabbit.

One guy I spoke with at a con described visiting studios when he lived in japan in the late 80's/early 90's, where the studios would set out huge boxes of cels, and charge a pittance for them. I believe he quoted around $5 a cel for the series he was interested in. This probably led to some studios eventually selling their cels in bulk to dealers or collectors, just to get them off their hands.

Then, of course, there are some studios that sold their cels directly. I think Toei must have done this at one time, as we do see a small proliferation of cels that show up in nice studio folders. We see it currently with AIC and Ah My Goddess rilezu.

However, what we've seen from here I believe is just a small fraction of what is really out there, or what was available at one time. And if what you are really getting at is where are those primo shots from DBZ...well, my personal theory is that the folks who worked on the show, or inside the studio, had first dibs on those treasures, and they will probably never see the light of day from folks like us.

[iceman57]

Sure, don't forget TOEI studio members private archives
Not a lot of cels but rare items

That question amused me too, especially on DBZ.
DBZ is 291 episodes, approx. 4 million cels (and same amount of sketches).

I worked several years in global logistics in connection with a truck hub and here is the practical vision I have from this question :

If you put the hypothesis of a millimeter per cel, and bulk paletised cartons US GALIA standard A12, that'll bring you at the end once you put on truck all the bulks something like a big rid 18 wheeler for 11 episodes.

For DBZ, this makes something like 26 trucks.
You may then easily understand why the studios (especially in Japan one of the most expensive surface on earth) had to destroy or massively sell the anime cels and other anime raw material.

I admit that on calculation this is a strong shortcut, but this easily helps to explain in just some lines a potential reasons of non storage of all the production cels in TOEI studios.

[sensei]

True, but remember that perhaps only 5% of cels produced show marketable images, even marginally (shut eyes, off-center, incomplete images). So even if 95% of all cels were destroyed by the studio, that is not necessarily a tragedy.

My impression is (and it's just that) that studios hire agents to dispose of their no-longer-needed art, and that these middlemen sort through the piles and, with more or less discretion, process the saleable items and sell them to jobbers. The very best images, I'm told, are sold face-to-face in Japan and never see the market. The next level will go to dealers, who will sometimes let high-level items go on auction, mainly on Mandarake where they bring strongest prices. So it is not in the cards that the very best items will appear on Yahoo Japan, much less on eBay.

So be it: I still have nice things and have (usually) stayed within my rather modest budget. Let the Mellons and Rockefellers go to Japan for their treasures.

[iceman57]

True, but sometimes there are real crap on YJP with eyes closed and so on

From what I've confirmation from connections, backgrounds and layouts are the most protected items due to famous people working on them or sentimental aspect.
Cels (especially cels due to only painting and not drawing) and sketches are consider are "production machines" that goes to garbage trashcan.

[cutiebunny]

My knowledge of how Toei cels are limited to how they were released for Sailormoon, so, I can't say for sure that that was the same for Dragonball. But seeing how both properties were run by Toei, I would guess that they are similiar.

Because there were so many cels around in the 1990s, their value, as a whole, was not much. It was not uncommon to see cels that were "send-in" prizes that a store or company might sponsor. Some of these send in prizes were released in blue envelopes. Others were given out as prizes in bookstores for buying manga. I've seen original shikishi boards distributed to manga bookstore sellers as promotional items. Many of these land on Yahoo Japan. I don't know if Nakayoshi, the monthly manga publication for Sailormoon, ever featured a contest where one could win a Sailormoon cel. Nakayoshi runs monthly contests, but most of them are for clothing and/or school items.

Around the Sailormoon R season(1993), Toei cels were sold in plastic bags that were sealed with a white sticker with blue writing on it that featured Toei's logo (Puss N Boots). All the artwork designated for resale were packaged up in these bags and sold at cel stores. Toei likely had contacts with distributors to sell their artwork, either directly or through third parties. Also, Toei did host the ocassional Sailormoon event where they held direct sales of some of their artwork.

Like many companies, those that worked on the show were able to smuggle out a lot of stuff. I recall reading somewhere that when Naoko Takeuchi(SM manga-ka) requested that Kodansha(SM manga printer/distributor) return her original manga artwork, the company informed her that they had "lost" the originals. Whether this is true or not is debatable (as Takeuchi requested the artwork once she and Kodansha were on unfriendly terms), but my theory is that someone in the company recognized the value of having pages of original artwork and either stole it for their collection or to resell to another collector.

It is very likely that all animation companies have a vault where they keep the absolute best for each anime they worked on. These items will remain in their permanent collection and will only be sold to keep the studio afloat. I've seen this happen this year with Madhouse, and due to the flood of CCS collectors scrambling to take advantage of these sales, a lot of CCS OP cels popped up in order for those collectors to fund those purchases. Of course, there may be other reasons, such as the recession, as to why these cels were sold, but it's a plausible theory as most of these cels were popping up when these direct(or semi-direct) sales were taking place.

[Sui Kune]

Possibly a bit off-topic, but I'm really interested in reading all this about Toei's practices in releasing and all that. :3 I'd like to learn as much as possible, actually, because it could give me an insight into what happened to such things as S Sailor Saturn cels, and the complete lack of S harmony cels I've seen in any online galleries. (Of course, online galleries make up a very small percentage of private collections, but it's still something to think about.)

If it is off-topic, if anyone would like to chat, feel free to send me a PM. :3 I'd really love to learn more!

[iceman57]

It is very likely that all animation companies have a vault where they keep the absolute best for each anime they worked on. These items will remain in their permanent collection and will only be sold to keep the studio afloat. I've seen this happen this year with Madhouse, and due to the flood of CCS collectors scrambling to take advantage of these sales, a lot of CCS OP cels popped up in order for those collectors to fund those purchases. Of course, there may be other reasons, such as the recession, as to why these cels were sold, but it's a plausible theory as most of these cels were popping up when these direct(or semi-direct) sales were taking place.

Excellent analysis.

From what I studied on a generationnal point of view, major arts smuggled from animation staff may come back on market approx. in year 2020 (heirs and so on willing to get cash).
Concerning vault, you're right, they all have private archives that you can ask to borrow for anime exhibitions and special major events. This is hard but not impossible.

[Strictly-Dragonball]

It's certainly interesting to speculate where all the masterpieces end up or indeed if they ever actually left the studio or the hands of those who worked there

The best place to get primo DBZ cels for me was Animegame because he always had something interesting or that I would like. Granted I only own 7 DB cels but most of them have originally come from him, even if I didn't buy from him directly. I try to only by quality DBZ cels worth my money that I will treasure.

The cels I do own are in my permanent collection

Then probably Mandarake but the prices can be so inflated at times

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but DBZ OP cels seem to be quite rare on the whole, where did they most likely end up? Japan?

The Vegeta OP I have for example, excluding TC's group OP cel is the only Vegeta Opening Credit cel I have seen and I don't ever recall seeing one of Goku. I have seen a lot of Gohan but the cels seem to all come from the same sequence.

CCS OP cels are by know means common but you see loads of those up for sale. Hardly any Dragonball Why?

[iceman57]

If on the visible collectors outside Japan, there are already 30% of potential collectors. I may imagine that including Japan, this maybe raise to 50%.

Demand is extremelly high, so some items never left the country.

[Tabbykitty]

There once was a pretty well-known DBZ collector in Japan. I'm not sure if the website is still up, but they had some of the most incredible and sought-after shots, including numerous OP's and ED's. I remember hearing once that they had an in at the studio, so was able to get access to this stuff.

Anyone remember that site? I think it was called DB room, something like that

[akadro]

The Master

http://www.ahww.or.jp/ani/index.html

dro