Fan Cels...good thing, or bad thing?

[Wolfette]

Awesome! I'd definately love to see some examples of your work I was browsing your cel gallery today, you have lovely cels. I do agree about the low morals of *MANY* people in the cel collecting world though, and its very sad. Anyway, please feel free to contact me at either address listed regarding fancels or post here, whichever you prefer.

Sheri
-- who has been leery of posting to Animanga due to some flame wars in the past ;.;

[EvilMisha]

...hey. Post on Animanga a lot, and have been lurking here. Finally decided to bite the bullet ^^ Aaaanywhoo, yes, fancels are technically illegal, but also, so is putting up a cel gallery, actually. At least, for certain series...FUNi claims they own the right to DBZ images, and I've heard of them cracking down on a few cel galleries -.-;; Doujinshi are ALSO illegal...and people make money off of them (barely..they earn enough to ake back what they spent on materials). It's just a form of fan appreciation, and companies pretend to be blind to it, for the most part, because it's good PR. They realize it would horribly anger their fans if they stopped them from creating fanworks, and would just be plain mean, and so they don't.

But the reason I posted was to say that I agree that it's annoying to see fancels made from a cel from someone's gallery. While you do not own rights to that image, you DO own rights to that scan of it...of course, going deeper, it shouldn't be an issue of rights, as not everything that is legal is right. It's an ethics issue. Plus, it's just bad manners...

Ah, well...anyway, yeah, I'm glad to see other people feel this way. If this were posted on Animanga, you can bet a war would break out with people saying that it's people's "rights" to do anything...bah...it's very hard expressing opinions there without getting chewed out.

[Wolfette]

Hi Misha, welcome over to this forum too! It's good to see some more familiar faces posting here!

Funimation is one of the worst companies for cracking down on any kind of fan sites - whether it being image galleries, cel galleries (a friend of mine got a threatening email from them saying to post that it was liscenced to them, blah blah.. or they'd sue - I guess I've been lucky they haven't bugged me, but I do... chokingly... acknowledge them on my YYH and DBZ galleries, so maybe thats why).

I didn't realize dj were technically illegal ... even in Japan they are? So the companies are just turning a blind eye to them? Wow, bizarre. I mean, yeah... it IS promoting a love of the series, etc. so they'd be stupid to try and stop them. Especially when most of the djka (erm, I think thats the term for the dj artists... ) barely make anything over cost of materials. It's when they are turned around and put on auctions that the real money comes into play. I have a friend in Japan who gets me YYH doujinshi for 100 yen - 1200 yen for the really large books, or very well known djka.

Anyway... for me, if I have a fancel made it's of something I'd like to see that didn't happen in the manga or series. Here's the concept of the one I had done - I haven't scanned the actual cel yet since its framed... having a hard time getting it to look right.



Thankfully she corrected the color of Mita-kun's eyebrow :lol:

Well, I've babbled enough. Like I said before, welcome and hope to see you posting some more! We tend to be a friendlier bunch then those on Animanga (thats where I usually lurk ... I hardly ever bother to post there)

Later,

Sheri

[EvilMisha]

...yeah, I'm a post-a-holic, heh ^^ I post at most of the cel forums pretty regularly, mainly because I have no life.

But yeah, dj are illegal...wierd thing, huh? But it's one of those "illegal" things that people would wonder about if action were taken. A silly formality, but that's about it. And you're right, they're so wonderfully cheap in Japan..the prices eBay gets are -ridiculous-. Now I just need a nice Japan connection to grab me dj for cheap

Ooooh, love that image! So cute ^^ Of the few fancels I've made, one is an original image, and two are from CG anime, and so no cels. I'm also making another original cel now, but it might take a while as the sketch is old and horribly inaccurate, proportion-wise XD

guh, it is late...ja!

-Misha

[Requiem]

Ok, I noticed this website in my daily browsal of 'where people are going to my website from' and I took a look around.

Ok, I've never mentioned this before but PLEASE don't lump me in with Hyperentiy. I hate them. With a passion. I hate their flat rates, I hate their insinuation that using only 'authentic' cel supplies makes their cels better than other cels (it doesn't--authentic cel supplies are made for cels to be filmed and disposed; you know what happens to them if they aren't taken care of--they are slowly destroyed. Not my fancels) and I really hate that they sell cels over and over again as limited editions.

The point of my fancel gallery is the same as all my other art galleries-- to see what I've done. I really don't like reproducing cels I've done before, and usually won't, unless someone sends me the same screencap someone else has: because it's not like someone should be limited to getting their dreamcel because it's someone else's dreamcel too. It also helps people track down my cels, because althought I go to serious pains to make sure they can't be used for non-ethical purposes I understand that if someone is determined enough, they can do it.

BUT then that's also why I don't like doing reproductions, or when I do I take the point of view of 'if I were the animator and I was given a second chance to redo this scene, what would I do' and people usually like that better than an exact copy.

So yes, fancels, like everything else in the world can be used for evil, but don't judge the people who just like to paint cels as a hobby the same as the ones who put half-assed copies on ebay or pretending they're real hoping to get rich, ok?

And by the way, not all people who paint fancels are decent enough artists in their own to paint non-reproductions, but they still like painting anyway, so they're kinda stuck. Doesn't mean they're bad or unoriginal, they're just being creative in the ways they can.

Sorry if my first message was a rant. I don't know if I'll stick around here, but I run a forum of my own full of fancel artists who are really nice decent honest people. (so they *DO* exist)

[Wolfette]

Umm, I was just about to walk out the door to go to Akon for the day, but I did have to comment on one thing... No one was lumping you in with Hyperenity, Requiem. I was *praising* your work, not dissing it or connecting you to them. I haven't seen anyone else saying anything negative either. ;;;

Sheri

[Requiem]

No no, someone said they wished Requiem and Hyperenity did more to make sure their cels weren't mistaken as real cels. That's what annoyed me. I go to no ends to make sure my cels aren't mistaken as real cels.

Like, I just bought some punched cels, but I almost didn't because I thought they'd be that much more easy for someone else to screw with. They didn't have unpunched, and I wanted to keep some in stock because due to certain misconceptions some people prefer their cels done on 'real' cels rather than artists acetate (which actually preserves ink and paint better because it's treated). Now I'm working out all sorts of methods to make sure that those cels CANNOT be misused, from placing restrictions on what gets painted on them to etching 'fan' in the top where the number would be so it can't be removed without removing the holes.

The only time someone's misused one of my cels, it was caught because I keep my cel gallery up, and I contacted the seller and the person who bought the cel (who was miffed, but is very nice and would probably not re-sell it, but if they do, they know it's a fancel now).

Usually everyone I paint things for is very nice and I even sometimes end up becoming email buddies with them, so it's rarely a problem, but I still work *very* hard on security >.< Like I say on my website, this is a hobby not a business for me. I do it because I like painting, and I was giving all my cels away to friends long before people started asking me for commissions over the 'net. If too many people start misusing my cels, I'll just go private and simply stop taking commissions from people I don't know personally and trust 100%.

*That's* the only thing I have a problem with. I appreciate that you guys like my cels so much. I was actually really happy when I was checking the message threads this morning when I got up and found the link here. Just wanted to clarify ^_^

[Kane]

It's sad that people out there would try and pass a fan cel off as a production cel (not the person making the fan cel, but the person who bought the fan cel). I don't own any fan cels yet, but when I do get my first one, I DO want it signed by the artist, it just makes that fan cel more special to have it signed.

But, that's just me.

[Requiem]

Well that's good to know. Most people don't mind signatures, or at least understand that they're there as a standard part of the cel to distinguish it from the real thing. My signature is so 3rd-graderish (I really envy people with the eloquent scrawl) I made a kanji seal that means 'Requiem' that I use on cels now--unless the seal would detract from the image, then I'll just hide my signature somewhere on the cel or under the paint where it's not obvious but still visible and can't be easily removed. Also sign cels on the back over the paint if I do the seal because not everyone would be able to read the kanji and know it was mine.

...but the cel that was misused would fall under the category of 'and some people are evil and cut the sigs off cels or digitally remove signatures.' *sigh*

But hey, the person in question made about $50 more than it cost to have me do the cel by passing it off as a 'reproduction' (which people usually interpret as a non-production studio released cel) than as a signed fancel. So long as there's profit to be made some people will act underhandedly.

[Wolfette]

*steaming a bit cuz she wasn't able to attend A-kon... long story.. sigh*

Hey Requiem,

I didn't even see the post that said you didn't do enough to make sure people knew your cels were not production or I would have pointed them towards any of the numerous posts to Animanga's forum. Glad you didn't think we all were saying that Like I said elsewhere on this forum, I mostly lurk at that forum due to flame wars. But I have read your posts and appreciate the lengths you go to try and assure your cels won't be misrepresented. I really liked Drac's idea of punching something near the painted image - I think that in addition to a signature that would make it much harder to pass off as anything else. Like PK, I also prefer a signature on the fancel - just as I'd want a "traditional" painting signed by the artist. I value the time and effort you all put into your work, and have literally been floored by many of your work, especially your CCS artbook style ones - and the Deedlit with white lines. Much, much droolage.

Anyway... it took me actually purchasing from Hyperenity to find out what a ... umm, bleep what I think ... she/they are like. *sigh* Wish I'd known beforehand, but live and learn I guess. I am still satisfied with my cel, but won't be buying anything else from them.

[dbzmomma]

I just want to thank everyone here for this thread, esp. Requiem. All this time I thought the best had to be done like the original with "professional" materials, and here I find out that artist's acetate is better, etc. I'm very happy. Now I can save money on supplies!

[Wolfette]

dbzmomma, I *love* your Goku fancel. Mwuahahaha!! :twisted:

Sheri

[dbzmomma]

hehehe :twisted:

[soda]

I've posted this in another thread but it seems relevant here too. It looks like FUNimation has taken note of Hyperenity and sent them a letter. Their website has been updated and all of the copyrighted cels appear to have been removed from their galleries. Although is looks as if their days of selling DBZ cels on ebay are over, they are still willing to sell DBZ cels (implied) on a "fan to fan" basis.

Here are my opinions about fan cels. First my definition of a fan cel is that it has to be of a copyrighted anime and created using similar methods to imitate an animation cel. I do not consider original characters created in the style of an animation cel to be fan cels because there is no copyrighted series for the person to be a "fan". I consider original cels to be just cels. Plain and simple. So my opinions here are directed at "fan cels" that reproduce an existing copyrighted series made expressly for the purposes of selling them to make money. They are making a quick buck without even needing to have two neurons make an original thought. That there is the essence of my dislike---making money from someone else's work. Bottom feeders. Sure it takes talent to be able to reproduce the cels but direct that talent at some original artwork.

As for original cels of unique characters, I say go for it. I collect cels because I like to look at the artwork. If your character/cel appeals to me then I'm happy. I do not care to look at fan cels because no matter how precise you are, you can never reproduce the original. Your artistic influence will be apparent. Why would I be interested in looking at a fan cel when I can look at the original?
-------
some technical stuff: the scans of your cels are your property but the characters depicted within those scans are not your property and technically you need to post a disclaimer stating that the characters are copyrighted by FUNimation.

Yes, FUNimation has the rights to take you to court here in the states and Canada (if you violate their copyrights). I'm not certain about Japan. But if Toei sold the rights to FUNimation then Toei cannot do anything in Japan.

[dbzmomma]

Hmmm, soda, you're absolutely right about the disclaimer. I HAVE seen those and for some reason it just didn't register. Having just left a post as an associatie editor, I really ought to know about these things! A disclaimer would be a good idea to post on any site devoted to a copyrighted character. It can't hurt, and it sure would help in case any problems arise. I think I'll do that.