Cel Storage Options, Questions...

[Jadeduo]

Hi Everyone!

I know I have been in hiding for some time, but I think it's great that this is a hobby you can take a mini break from and not have to worry about too many storage issues... However I am going house hunting, and I was thinking ahead as to what kind if storage options I want to implement and what kind of home I want for my cels. I've already decided that as far as displaying goes I am going to frame up high quality scans of my collection and display them all over my house

So here are my questions:

Does everyone use Itoya books and is anyone else annoyed that you cannot fill them because they will bend the artwork?

What about other options? Like a flat file cabinet? Or archival boxes? Would a windowless room be best for them? Should I buy a dehumidifier because I live in FL?

I would love to hear about what everyone else has been doing over the years i myself have been using Itoya books and rebagging each cel once every three years or so... It's expensive as my art count is up above 150 pieces now, but I've noticed the bags are usually very dirty by the time the three years are up.

I look forward to hearing from everyone!

Jadeduo

[Keropi]

Should I buy a dehumidifier because I live in FL?

This is not easy to answer unless you know what the relative humidity and temperature readings are from your room and what the ranges are during different times of the year. I keep digital themometers and hygrometers in my room where I store my collectibles. They're readings vary a bit, but for my room I always try to keep the relative humidity in my room 61% or less (preferably under 60%). That's when the weather is cooler than say 72-74 degrees F and below. When it's warmer the dew point is higher and the humidity is even less likely to condense on the inside of my windows. I've noticed that it also causes less damage to my papers compared to the same relative humidity % at higher temperatures. The moisture can still cause damage in the long term, but it's much less troublesome for me than getting humidity during cool weather. It's usually not very humid out here in Los Angeles during warmer weather except when the remnants of a tropical storm pass by here from Mexico and that doesn't happen much.

Dehumidifiers have a harder time pulling water out of the air in warmer temperatures. When the weather is warmer out here the relative humidity tends to drop in my room so I mainly only have humidity problems during the cooler months. I'm not sure what I would do if I lived somewhere else. I suppose I'd have to use a combination of air conditioner and dehumidfier because when the temperature becomes too warm the dehumidifier becomes useless.

My dad has a bathroom attached to his bedroom so after he takes a shower all that moisture comes into his room and condenses on the window next to it and on the ceiling. My dad boils water a lot on the stove and the windows in the kitchen fogs up with drop waters. If your room is near something like that it could be a problem. It depends on how much moisture gets to where your collectibles are stored. That's why you need a thermometer and hygrometer to give you a better idea of the situation. My dad has to use two dehumidfiers in his room to stop the moisture from the attached bathroom from damaging the ceiling and affecting the paint.

Do you have any thermometers or hygrometers available for you to be able to check? Mechanical hygrometers have different readings compared to the digital ones. I've grown used to the digital hygrometers readings.

I don't know too much about warm weather humidity damage because I've never had much of that here. I've known the papers that my mother had browned and got foxing after only about ten years, but I don't have personal experience with that kind of weather. I'd love to know more about warm weather humidity paper damage from those who are live in those regions. I'd like to know more about it and how fast it occurs BEFORE I move to Hawaii.

Some of the warm weather humidity damage I seen from her papers occurred in the same way that I used to get around here from cool weather humidity damage. There was less paper damage in well ventilated areas where the air could pass through and dry the paper. There was more damage in areas that had poor ventilation because there were pockets of moisture that had little chance to completely dry out (like at the bottom of a drawer or something in back of a pile of something). On the other hand, sometimes having no air circulation fared better for the paper because it was EXPOSED less to moist air. So paper that was stacked on top of each other ended up in better shape, but the edges of the paper were browner because that was the part that was exposed to the humid air (it wasn't caused by increased light exposure).

[Jadeduo]

Keropi,

Thanks for your reply that was really interesting to read about your temp issues in SoCal, you will be pleased to know that right after I read your post I purchased a thermometer/hydrometer digital off of amazon. The room I have always stored them has always been a moisture free room, and generally they are kept in a bookcase vertically in Itoya Books. I replace the bags once every 3 years or so, and this round I am adding a quarter sheet of microchamber paper to each bag, per Sensei's recommendation.

I also have been slowing going through and comparing previous scans, and I am happy to report that fading since entering my collection has not been a huge issue. I have lived in FL since I started collecting just about 10 years ago. However, I have not yet completed rebagging/rescanning everything. I have noticed that as scanning technology gets better, that the fading shows better in my newer scans, but conversely the colors are more brilliant.

Another thing I found which made me very glad that I rebag and take everything out every three years is, I have some weeping happening on my Gravity Chamber Goku. The cel when it came to me was pretty line faded and the cel was completely shellacked to a piece of rice paper. It never affected the image because the entire piece of acetate is covered with paint, so I left it. When I took it out of the bag the cel had re-stuck on the side (where the rice paper had not covered the paint) to the sketch, was tacky to the touch and left some paint behind!!! But it did not affect the image! @_@ Conversely I have rebagged the cel, and added an entire sheet of microchamber. I am unsure how to halt any further damage but if anyone has any ideas let me know.

Another thing to note is that this is one of the oldest cels in my collection, the air date for Freezer is 90-91 making this cel well over 20 years old... So I guess being a Toei cel I am lucky it has held up this long

If anyone is interested I added a scan of the aforementioned cel from 2005 when I bought it (8 years ago, god I am old!) and a scan I did Sunday... Just to compare it looks like there is not much difference in the line fading and the scan from 2005 looks quite muddied in comparison!

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8506/8596 ... 5e78_m.jpg 2005
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8511/8596 ... d8f0_m.jpg 2013

I would still be interested in hearing about how everyone is storing their babies!

Thanks Again!
Jadeduo

[Keropi]

The digital thermometer and hygrometer readings do vary a bit from each other. If I had gotten the expensive ones the readings would vary less, but the ones I have are good enough. It's not like I'm conducting scientific experiments. I use my dehumidifier until it's time to go to sleep. When I wake up in the morning the relative humidity has jumped up quite a bit. I have to use my dehumifier enough before going to sleep so that the readings aren't too high when I wake up. My dehumidifier is old and it's very noisy. I can't leave it on when I'm trying to sleep. The best thing would have been if I kept the humidity level fairly consistent throughout the day and night by keeping them in another room, but I don't have that option.

Sometimes when it's cool and overcast, I open my windows to air out my room, but then it becomes more humid inside. I use my fan to blow the air around and get the air circulating trying to get rid of the moist pockets around my room. The humidity level goes up. Then I have to close the windows and turn on my dehumidifier again to bring the relative humidity back down.

Glad to hear that you cel is aging well. The pictures aren't working at the moment though.

[Golden Boy]

Hi Jadeduo,
This is what I use:
11x14 Itoya Multi-Ring Binder:
http://www.carpediemstore.com/viewItem. ... oduct=4123

Itoya PolyGlass sheets:
http://www.carpediemstore.com/mlistCate ... tegory=181

Bainbridge Letramax Black On Black Board:
http://www.misterart.com/display-presen ... board.html

I replace the sheets that come with the binder with the PolyGlass sheets. I insert one board into each sheet.

Pros:
Black boards provide rigidity so bending pages is a non-issue. (I don't cringe when I hand them to family and friends.)
Multi-ring binder allows me to rearrange cels to suit my needs and to take them out to show at a con without taking cels out of the sheets. (I'm anal when it comes to organizing: same character go together, same show go together. So if I have to insert a cel here and pull out all the other cels after it, I would go nuts.)

Cons:
A little more expensive. (Carpe Diem sell these at a great price. Actually all their Itoya products are at a great price. I wait for a sale at a local art store to get the black boards.)
A little more heavier. (Rigidity comes at a price: more weight.)
A little less storage. (I usually keep a max limit of 20 sheets to a binder. I could double the capacity and have 2 cels to a sheet back to back, but that defeats one of the pros of this system. Whereas, a standard Itoya portfolio has 24 sheets for a possible 48 views.)

Switching to this system was a gradual process. Started with 2 or 3 binders and I'm now up to 22. Less cel handling, more cel protection, best display flexibility.

I hope you find this info useful.

Regards,
GB

[Gonzai]

Oooooooo - good call GB - that is exactly what I use. O_O
And, I get it from Carpe Diem as well!! @_@
Great minds think alike!! ~_^

[Golden Boy]

GZ,
I'm the one that gave you the link, silly. But I do appreciate being called a "great mind" if only for a moment. Seize the day!

gb

[graymouser]

I have a fairly large collection. I have a pretty good storage system in place now but am always looking for ways to improve. I am a little curious about the thickness of the black mounting board. I couldn't see the information I was looking for in the product description. You say it is strong enough to prevent bending. Is its stiffness closer to a framing mat or a file folder? Another way to put it; how thick (inches or centimeters) are the 20 sheets you use? I am trying to find a balance. I would love something stiffer than just the black paper I have now, but I don't want something so thick that it takes up too much space in the folio/binder.

[Golden Boy]

Hi graymouser,
Stiffness is definitely closer to a framing mat. 20 boards stacked together was 3/4 inch thick or .0375 inch per board. I like that the board eliminates the flex when you're "flipping" pages and it's already pre-cut. I would not recommend them for fixed-page folders like the original Itoya as it will start to fan out. How do you store your collection?

gb

[graymouser]

Thanks for the information on the boards. I will give them a try. Right now I do not have a set number of cels per binder or folio. I just kind of eyeball it to see when I feel it is getting to be too much. The boards may force some rearranging and extra binder buying, but I like the idea. It will be fun to experiment on a couple of binders and see how it works out.

I am kind of OCD about storage and record-keeping for my cels, so it probably seems like a lot. Fortunately, once I got things set up, maintaining the system is fairly quick and easy. Its just that as my collection grew larger, I needed to be super-organized just to keep track of it all.

I scan every cel before moving it into storage. I also record all details such as cel number, seller, number and type of sketches, purchase date, cost etc. I use a combination of binders, folios, and frames to store the cels. I like the binders for standard TV or movie cels. For smaller pan cels or standard-sized cels with backgrounds too large to fit into the 11" X 14" books, I still use the folios. I expect that I will eventually switch to binders for those too. Like you, I try to keep it to one cel per page. In general, its one show per binder (or set of binders) unless it is a show where I have less than 6-7 cels; then they share. Inside the binders, the cels are placed in cel bags with the layers separated and the tape removed. Binders and folios have microchamber paper. All binders and folios are labeled with the show(s) they contain to make things easy to locate. These are all kept in a closet where I built in adjustable shelving so I can fit the binders and folios. Matching sketches are placed into cel bags and stored in those plastic cases that cels are often shipped in. The binders are each matched with a case. They are then placed on the shelves alternating between case and binder. This lets me find the matching sketches to a cel right away without bulking up the binders with all the paper. The matching sketch is nearly always in the labeled case on the left side of the binder I am storing the cel in. All the sketches that came with a cel share a cel bag so they do not get mixed up with the other sketches in the same case. Pan cel sketches that are too big for the normal cases are bagged and stored together in a large storage bin - the same way that the smaller pan cels from various shows are grouped together in the folios. In the few instances where the cel is small but the sketches are large, I leave a printed scan of the cel in the matching case to let me know that its sketches are in the large bin instead. All storage bins have microchamber paper. None of the cel bags are sealed.

The cels that are too large for the 13" X 19" or 14" X 17" folios are professionally framed with archival-safe materials. I am just too worried about them bending from being in larger (flimsier) folios or simply being loose. I also worry about pressure damage from stacking the extra large ones too high on top of each other. I have 35 framed cels with 2 more waiting to get done. This would add up to a lot of weight if piled on top of each other; especially since most of them have multiple layers. At the moment, a little over half of the framed cels are in the closet and are not on display. The rest are in locations that do not receive any direct light. All the sketches for the framed cels are in the large sketch bin.

Backgrounds, storyboards and settei (as well as sketches that have no matching cels) are kept in 4 medium-sized plastic bins. I don't have that many storyboards or settei so they bagged and stored together in the 1st bin. The backgrounds are individually bagged. Ones from the same show are then put together in a larger cel bag so everything from the same show is together. All of these are then put into the 2nd bin. The only exception to this is my MOB backgrounds. There are so many of them that instead of bagging together by show, they are bagged by episode, and the show has its own storage bin. Sketch sets without cels are treated the same as backgrounds and are stored together in the 4th bin.

Like you, I am in Southern California so humidity is not really a problem. I have to admit that I do not even keep track of it. I do keep track of temperature since where I am located can get over 100 degrees F in late August/early September. Thank God for air conditioning.

[Noriko010884]

What about a dry cabinet?

[Keropi]

What about a dry cabinet?

I think someone here has one. I can't recall who it was though.

I wonder how well dry cabinets get rid of humidity when the temperature is in the 78-86 degrees F range? A couple times I used my dehumidfier when it was around 83 degrees F and it barely could pull water out of the air. It wasn't worth leaving it on constantly using all that electricity and hardly doing anything. It also heated up my room. It worked well as a room heater, but I didn't need heat at that time.

My room is in the northwest corner of the house and it gets the least amount of sun of any room throughout the year (there's a two story house to the west of us). My living room is in the south of the house. It gets a lot of sun and has more ventilation (the front door). It's usually much less humid in my livingroom than in my bedroom. There is often a 5-7% difference in relative humidity between the two rooms.

[Noriko010884]

I am considering getting a dry cabinet and in my research I've found they actually run on very little power, so they're cheap and efficient to run, it's just really the initial cost.

That said, I live in South London (Englang) and don't know if a dry cabinet is worth the hassle of making space in my room. I'm on the fence. I might check out a dehumidifier.

Like everyone, it's a case of weighing up the circumstance and the needs/requirements... decisions decisions.

[animeobsessed]

Oooooooo - good call GB - that is exactly what I use. O_O
And, I get it from Carpe Diem as well!! @_@
Great minds think alike!! ~_^

Question about this thread on cel storage...do sheets come with the binder? Are they okay or do you replace them like GB does?

[graymouser]

Question about this thread on cel storage...do sheets come with the binder? Are they okay or do you replace them like GB does?

The binders come with 10 plastic sheets with thick black paper inserts. The paper for the Itoya binders is thicker than the paper for the Itoya folios but a little thinner than file folder paper. Goldenboy said that 20 of the black mounting boards are about 3/4 of an inch. For comparison, 20 of the black binder papers are about 1/4 of an inch.