Fan Cels...good thing, or bad thing?

[Wolfette]

Toei did not sell the rights to Funimation - Funimation was given the right to produce an english dub / subtitled version to sell in the USA - thats all. They don't own the characters.

As far as the deal with Hyperenity goes - good. I'm glad to see them knocked down. We'll see how long it lasts though. I'd bet that they'll be selling again.

For the subject of fan cels, it's all personal opinion and we're all entitled to our opinion. I'm not going to try and convince you that it's ok for people to create fan cels based on actual scenes from the anime - but at the same time, I still don't see a problem with someone doing it. Seriously, if someone made a fan cel, even if it was from one of my production cels I wouldn't really care. As long as they don't try to pass it off as production - or just *not* say one way or another. That's where I run into problems.

Also - not all fan cel artists are like Hyperenity and out to make a quick buck. There are a lot of honest artists out there who make the fan cels to help people who can't find a cel they *really* want. Their prices are very reasonable considering the time it takes to make these, and cost of materials. I do have a few fan cels and I plan on having more made... and yes, some might be made from off screencaptures. But most would be based off of ideas I have which don't appear on screen.

I think it's a little harsh to lump them all together and call fan cel artists bottom feeders as a whole though... It's simply not true.

Sheri

[Requiem]

I'm such a bottom feeder!

Heh, just kidding. Actually, I got into fan cels because I liked the vividness of medium and wanted to get good enough to be able to paint my own stuff. Color has always been an issue with me because no matter what I try it usually falls short of the picture in my head. So I started out by taking manga images or fanart I already did and trying to get it to look as good as series art. I took 'commissions' for free from my boyfriend and a bunch of my anime friends just because I wanted experience. I never really kept any of the first 25 or so cels I painted. About the same time I sold some original fanart on ebay, and since there was a link back to my page, some people saw my then-tiny cel gallery and asked if I'd paint them stuff. Same thing as I was already doing, so it didn't seem like a big thing.

It wasn't for several months that I actually found out what cels were worth and how much of a problem counterfeiting can be (that was a shock! The first cels I looked up were shamanic princess and I was amazed that they could sell for $200+ each... little did I know...)and that was only by accident because I had started searching for any reference on the net on how to actually MAKE fancels. My original source was some Disney kids activities site and it was good enough for me to start (cels are made with transparent acetate sheets, acrylic paint, and paint pens...) but I figured there had to more information out there (it's the INTERNET!)

...and then I got into artbook cels. And I liked those a lot. It's only been recently that I've actually started to consider myself a good enough fan cel artist to be able to start drawing things specifically to be made into cels, and not done in pencils or something else first. Like this one

http://www.darksidemillenium.com/art/cell74.jpg

...and it took more than 74 cels for me to be that confident.

I think fan cels (any cel painted by a non studio artist by my definition) are a great hobby, which is why I keep such an in-depth tutorial on my website. I've taught friends who feel like they have no artistic ability to do cels (and not just anime--I taught my old roommate how to do cels by digging up old care bear coloring books online) and they love it because it's so relaxing and rewarding.

...but then, I probably have a much different perspective on the whole thing because I was painting fancels long before I knew they were collectables, and most othe people only find out about fancels after being a collector of production cels.

So now you know how I got into fan cels. Not what you expected, was it? I'm such a profit hound, I charge less than half of what I make at my day job per hour, and that's only because I had to cover my art supply bills. God I'm such an evil capitalist pig. :devil

heehee

[soda]

SW, your right I shouldn't lump all fan cel artists into the category of bottom feeder. I tried to not give that impression so it looks like I have some cleanup work to do. Requiem is a prime example. By charging only to cover the cost of supplies then by my scope of comments s/he is not a bottom feeder. Let me point out this sentence from my post:

"So my opinions here are directed at "fan cels" that reproduce an existing copyrighted series made expressly for the purposes of selling them to make money. "

Since Requiem isn't out to make a quick buck her/his cels would fall into the category of my comments that I made in the next paragraph:

"I do not care to look at fan cels because no matter how precise you are, you can never reproduce the original. Your artistic influence will be apparent. Why would I be interested in looking at a fan cel when I can look at the original?"

One thing is clear however. I can lump all fan cel (my definition) artists into the category of "people that have violated copyright law" and I certainly wouldn't call them honest. That's an oxymoron. A honest law breaker?
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If I had written my post more clearly, I wouldn't have been accused of calling Requiem (and others) a bottom feeder. But I don't know what I would have changed. The words were there and they make sense to me so after thinking about this I really don't appreciate the smirky attitude of some parts of the above posts. If you had digested my post completely before posting I don't think you would have made your comments. Most parts were civil but a few sentences were typed soley to shove them in my face.
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I'll try to be very clear here:

The FACT is that fan cel artists that copy someone else's ideas are breaking the law and would be found guilty in a court of law. They would have a criminal record. That is not a matter of opinion. That's fact.

My OPINION is that assembly line fan cel artists such as Hyperenity and others that appeared to be doing this only to make a quick buck by auctioning off their talent are the bottom feeders. Fan cel artists such as Requiem, that only charge minimal fees to cover supplies and time spent are not bottom feeders.

[Requiem]

I didn't take it as a personal insult. I wasn't responding to you personally, either. I was just pointing out that not all fancel artists got into it for the money, using myself as an example. It's a common conception among cel collectors, I've seen it before. Because sooner or later most people will take commissions, even if your reasons for commissions aren't profit--how is someone else to know that?

I KNOW making a fancel--even an original one of an existing character is copyright infringement. It's copywright infringement to make a fan site, even if you draw all the images yourself, use no screencaps, and don't even talk about the episodes/movie the characters are from. Even if you don't earn a cent through something like ad sponsorship, or even pay a lot of money to maintain that fan site. Just about everything fan related short of being a good consumer and buying official products is infringing.

Me, I'm ecstatic that Hyperenity got burned. They're one of the first sites I found when I first started looking for fancels, and their entire system disgusted me, even before I went to animanga and found out that production cel collecting is a legitimate and rather expensive hobby. Even though it may cause some difficulties for me in the future, I'm quite glad. I'm amused it was on dragonball too, because that's a series I refuse to paint due to the extremely high rate of counterfeiting (that and the fact that the animation is so basic I don't think I could learn anything by painting them.

As for why look at a fancel if the artist's influence is apparent (it isn't always in mine, but I prefer to make it so) why don't you go here:

http://www.lunacels.com/detail/utenfan.html

I get emails like that from people about my cels all the time. That's just someone with a website.

My opinion on the matter is why settle for the original when you can make it better?

[EvilMisha]

I agree with Requiem on most of these things, and since she stated most of how I feel on the legality of it all, I'll move on...

While I do agree that fancels are wonderful, and allow those to have dreamcels that they otherwise would not have (and might even be made better), I myself do not collect them, because I believe collecting cels is more than collecting pretty pieces of art. I collect cels for their production value, for the joy of knowing this one cel created an anime I know and love. But I do love seeing fancel works, even if I myself do not collect them.

-Misha

[haruna.of.jurai]

i don't make fan cels to sell on eBay, i usually make two of each of them. i make them in the first place to put in my own collection, but i usually make another for eBay because i want others to have them, i want money to buy more supplies, and because i don't want to have to sell my production cels to get that money. believe me, i don't sell them on eBay for profit, and anyone that does isn't really making much money at all....

as for hyperenity, what they were doing was wrong. everyone here knows that, and it's a shame that we have to look upon fan cels as a negative thing, but just regular fanart was an industry within itself just a couple of months ago. before collecting cels became soo popular, people that buy fancels now were probably the ones dishing out money for fanart commissions. same deal, really.

i love to see fanart and fancels being offered for sale, but i don't like mass production of either just for a profit. i don't know about most of you, but i buy fanart and fancels for their artistic quality, how they portray a character that i have come to love through an anime, not how close or acurate that they are to the production cels or even the character. artistic flare is artistic flare, but it shouldn't be put down by people who try to exploit it.

i also agree that it wouldn't anger me a bit if i saw someone with a fanart cel of one of my production cels; tenchi forever cels don't come cheap, not even crappy ones, really, and especially not ones of tenchi with that *oh so long* hair of his... (goes into a daze,... ahem...). anyways, i dished out the bucks, i have the real thing, and someone else is enjoying a fanart cel that is not an exact copy of what i have no matter how close it is. makes me happy, how 'bout you? why be greedy (not intending to say that anyone here is) with something that was supposed to be destroyed, and might not have even been able to be yours in the first place? just some thoughts...

haruna

[Wolfette]

soda ... I don't think anyone was really smirky towards what you wrote. Sure, I stated it was a little unfair to lump all fan cel artists into one group (Hyperenity is actually the exception to the rule, from my experience) and Requiem may have cracked a joke, but I think it was clear she was kidding.

In any case, I'm not upset with what you've said and I hope you won't be upset with any opinions I've stated. That being said ... did you know that Funimation could *try* to sue you for displaying your cels on your website? That goes for anyone with DBZ and/or YYH cels on their site. Yes, they've actually sent a threatening letter to someone I know who has a cel gallery up. This just shows what pricks these people at Funimation can be. The interesting thing would be to see what the courts do - DBZ has the liscensing rights to distribute DBZ episodes and merchandise within the US - but they *do not* OWN DBZ - that is still held by Toei and Toriyama. Toei did not completely sell everything to Funimation.

I'm not trying to be petty and pick anything with *anyone* .... but Funimation has overstepped their boundaries in the past. And I don't want anyone to think that Funimation actually owns anything and everything to do with DBZ.

soda, don't take this as being smirky ... but honestly, can you say you've never broken the law? If you drive 1 mile an hour over the speed limit, you've broken the law... So I guess we're all a bit dishonest because I can't say I know a single person who has *never* broken the law in one way or another - and to one degree or another.

Just my opinions... take them as you will..

Sheri

[Wolfette]

tenchi with that *oh so long* hair of his... (goes into a daze,... ahem...).

Tenchi with long hair? *tries and fails to imagine* Gotta screencap?

Sheri

[Deadly Whispers]

This is COMPLETELY but, Welcome to Beta, Requiem! I'm glad to see you've made it over here. :bee

[soda]

Hello all, Nah, I'm not upset with you SW or anyone else. I can't get upset at opinions. Only the way they are presented and you guys all do a great job of doing that without provoking someone and I try to do the same. I really like lively discussion without getting mean and dirty and this place seems to be full of mature people. The other board I visit, www.dragonballtoys.com, is full of kids that wouldn't be able to handle a post similar to one I made.

I was aware that someone on this board got a letter from FUNimation about their cel gallery and I also thought that was being picky. But I wasn't completely sure that they could try and sue you in court. I thought that if you put the disclaimer about who owns the rights that would eliminate the problem. Maybe not.

I didn't know that Toei and Toriyama still own DBZ and that FUNImation only had the rights to distribute episodes and merchandise. That makes total sense to me and I would be surprised if they had sold DBZ completely but I like to see statements of that sort backed up so would you care to reveal your source for that information?

I don't totally agree with you about the point of breaking the law and being honest-- and that's a good thing read on. Sure, I break traffic laws every single day but since all laws are not treated equally by the courts, I'm certain you would agree that you cannot compare minor speed violations (and ONLY speeding--I don't want to get into the possible events that could result from speeding such as manslaughter) with copyright violations. Taffic laws are misdemeanors. I'm not certain what copyright violations are classified as but from a quick search and read of the copyright law, it appears to be more serious than a misdemeanor. The point being that people that willingly and knowingly use someone else's ideas for profit (such as fan cels on ebay) are dishonest. Honesty has almost nothing to do with speeding, jaywalking, riding your bike on the sidewalk and other activities that break the law in which no theft occurs. So the good part is that I'd venture to guess that most if not all members of this board are honest.

thanks for reading---

[Wolfette]

soda, Funimation states it on their webpage.

http://www.funimation.com/copyright.htm

Dragon Ball Z - © 2002 BIRD STUDIO/ SHUEISHA, TOEI ANIMATION. Licensed by FUNimation Productions, Ltd. All Rights Reserved. Dragon Ball Z and all logos, character names and distinctive likenesses thereof are trademarks of TOEI ANIMATION.

Dragon Ball - © 2002 BIRD STUDIO/ SHUEISHA, TOEI ANIMATION. Licensed by FUNimation Productions, Ltd. All Rights Reserved. Dragon Ball and all logos, character names and distinctive likenesses thereof are trademarks of TOEI ANIMATION.

I guess we're going to agree to disagree on our views of law breakers - personally I do NOT call someone who is a fan artist a dishonest person. *shrugs* I'm too headachy today to do much debating Maybe after it goes away I'll be more in the mood for it.

Laters,

Sheri

[haruna.of.jurai]

haruna

[Wolfette]

Oooh!!!! Much, much nicer ^_^! Thanks for posting that

[Sith-Krillin]

I just thought that since I really don't have any opinion on fan cels one way or another, and therefore have nothing to contribute to this 'hot' and VERY long topic I'd toss in a few words...

Grandma, Peanut, Elbow, Orangutan...


There, I've had my say... now I'm off...!
Thank you for your time.
(Grunties)

-D